Discussion:
Record changer for a Philco 116-122
(too old to reply)
Benjamaniac
2005-11-29 03:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Just picked up a nice Philco 116-122, but it's missing the turntable, Does
anybody know which one I should be looking for to replace it with ??
Thanks,
Ben
Ron Ramirez
2005-11-29 03:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamaniac
Just picked up a nice Philco 116-122, but it's missing the
turntable, Does
anybody know which one I should be looking for to replace it with ??
WOW, you picked up a 116PX radio-phono? Great find!

The 116PX originally used a two-speed automatic record changer for
either 78 rpm or 33-1/3 rpm operation. Although it had the slow speed,
it was not designed for the microgroove "LP" records which would not
come out for 13 more years afterwards.

Unfortunately, the original changer is probably unobtanium. I can copy
the original Service Bulletin for you which gives an illustration of the
changer (without the platter) if you like. Please e-mail me. mrphilco at
philcoradio dot com. In return I would really, really like to see large
(high resolution) pictures of your set.

The previous year's Model 501 (16 chassis) used a similar, but not
exactly the same, changer. One of those is probably unobtanium as
well...
--
Ron Ramirez - Evansville, Indiana
Visit PhilcoRadio.com at http://www.philcoradio.com/
and the new Philco Phorum at http://philcoradio.com/phpBB2/index.php
Mark Oppat
2005-11-29 09:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Ron, were the changers Philco made or another maker like Webster-Chicago?
I know Philco made their own later, but did they for this set too?

Mark Oppat
Post by Ron Ramirez
Post by Benjamaniac
Just picked up a nice Philco 116-122, but it's missing the
turntable, Does
anybody know which one I should be looking for to replace it with ??
WOW, you picked up a 116PX radio-phono? Great find!
The 116PX originally used a two-speed automatic record changer for
either 78 rpm or 33-1/3 rpm operation. Although it had the slow speed,
it was not designed for the microgroove "LP" records which would not
come out for 13 more years afterwards.
Unfortunately, the original changer is probably unobtanium. I can copy
the original Service Bulletin for you which gives an illustration of the
changer (without the platter) if you like. Please e-mail me. mrphilco at
philcoradio dot com. In return I would really, really like to see large
(high resolution) pictures of your set.
The previous year's Model 501 (16 chassis) used a similar, but not
exactly the same, changer. One of those is probably unobtanium as
well...
--
Ron Ramirez - Evansville, Indiana
Visit PhilcoRadio.com at http://www.philcoradio.com/
and the new Philco Phorum at http://philcoradio.com/phpBB2/index.php
Ron Ramirez
2005-11-29 14:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
Ron, were the changers Philco made or another maker like
Webster-Chicago? I know Philco made their own later, but did they for
this set too?
I don't have any good documentation on this, but based on conversations
I've had over the years with Doug Houston, I think it would be safe to
say that the 116PX changer was probably made by a company other than
Philco.

The other Philco radio-phonographs made in 1936 (650PX, 640PF, 630PF,
610PF) had a single play platter and the same Victor-designed tonearm
used by Philco since the 1930 Model 296. The Victor tonearm was used by
Philco as late as 1937, complete with the old PHILCO-with-lightning-bolt
trademark.
--
Ron Ramirez - Evansville, Indiana
Visit PhilcoRadio.com at http://www.philcoradio.com/
and the new Philco Phorum at http://philcoradio.com/phpBB2/index.php
Hagstar
2005-11-30 01:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
Ron, were the changers Philco made
Mark, do you often post at 4:30 am ?

Also, don't listen to him. They aren't THAT bad to recap. Lots of
baker'slite tar babies, true, but these are hard only for those (sigh)
who insist of removing each one and boiling in turpentine to remove the tar.

I have a 116X chassis on the bench now, and several variations on display.

John H.
Mark Oppat
2005-11-30 04:20:12 UTC
Permalink
If you look at my posts, many are well after midnight. I work late in the
shop. I am good at staying up, not good at getting up. Its a curse... I
really wish I could sleep without being exhausted but I cant.
Just dont call me before 10am... I'll talk, but it wont make as much sense
as usual!

Mark Oppat
Post by Hagstar
Post by Mark Oppat
Ron, were the changers Philco made
Mark, do you often post at 4:30 am ?
Also, don't listen to him. They aren't THAT bad to recap. Lots of
baker'slite tar babies, true, but these are hard only for those (sigh)
who insist of removing each one and boiling in turpentine to remove the tar.
I have a 116X chassis on the bench now, and several variations on display.
John H.
Radio Active
2005-11-29 18:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamaniac
Just picked up a nice Philco 116-122, but it's missing the turntable, Does
anybody know which one I should be looking for to replace it with ??
Thanks,
Ben
Ben': I have three old Philco changers here which were scheduled for the
trash this Wednesday. One is a Webster 161-1 and one is marke 2 ? The third
has no markings.? I will take pics and send them to your email address. The
price is zero, just pay for the actual shipping charges. Verne



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toxcrusadr
2005-11-29 19:49:15 UTC
Permalink
You guys wanna share with the rest of us the year of manufacture of the
116PX? Surely this was not prewar (I don't think they had 33s then),
but 13 years prior to the introduction of microgroove 33's is....when?
Inquiring minds want to know.

I have a higher end 48-1290 (1948) with a pretty advanced magnetic
cartridge but it's only for 78s. It's a Philco D-10A changer.

Tox
Ron Ramirez
2005-11-29 23:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by toxcrusadr
You guys wanna share with the rest of us the year of manufacture of the
116PX? Surely this was not prewar (I don't think they had 33s then),
but 13 years prior to the introduction of microgroove 33's is....when?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Sorry...It's a 1936 model.
--
Ron Ramirez - Evansville, Indiana
Visit PhilcoRadio.com at http://www.philcoradio.com/
and the new Philco Phorum at http://philcoradio.com/phpBB2/index.php
Mark Oppat
2005-11-29 23:42:47 UTC
Permalink
havent you heard of the Philco 116 series? It most certainly is pre war,
its 1936! Get thee to a swap meet or to eBay and get one, they are amongst
the finest sets ever made by any American consumer radio maker! Not super
rare, either, so you can get a decent one, unrestored for under $300
usually. The console versions sell cheaper, often. THey are a goodly
amount of work to restore, due to the MANY bakelite block caps in them.

Yes, there were prewar 33's, but cut like 78's, and it goes back to the film
industry... some reason about the projector made them run that speed, I
forget why.

Mark Oppat
Post by toxcrusadr
You guys wanna share with the rest of us the year of manufacture of the
116PX? Surely this was not prewar (I don't think they had 33s then),
but 13 years prior to the introduction of microgroove 33's is....when?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I have a higher end 48-1290 (1948) with a pretty advanced magnetic
cartridge but it's only for 78s. It's a Philco D-10A changer.
Tox
r***@bill-collins.net
2005-11-30 15:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
some reason about the projector made them run that speed, I
forget why.
To make the playing time equal the run time of a file reel?

Bill
toxcrusadr
2005-11-30 15:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
Yes, there were prewar 33's, but cut like 78's, and it goes back to the film
industry...

That's what threw me, I've heard of the 116's but could not believe
THAT line of radios was associated with 33 rpm. I learn something new
every day in this hobby!

Wish I had a swap meet, out here in the hinterlands of central MO...

Tox
Mark Oppat
2005-11-30 18:59:55 UTC
Permalink
well, dont associate the 116 very much with the 33 speed, as this is a VERY
rare version with a phono in it. Philco, like most other makers, was not so
much on phono combos until 1940, when the combos just took off like a rocket
in sales.

Mark Oppat
Post by Mark Oppat
Post by Mark Oppat
Yes, there were prewar 33's, but cut like 78's, and it goes back to the film
industry...
That's what threw me, I've heard of the 116's but could not believe
THAT line of radios was associated with 33 rpm. I learn something new
every day in this hobby!
Wish I had a swap meet, out here in the hinterlands of central MO...
Tox
toxcrusadr
2005-11-30 19:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Yeah. I should have said I didn't see how the time period of the 116
correlated with 33 rpm. I bet that would throw a lot of people off in
Trivial Pursuit. "When was the first 33 rpm record made? Closer to
1935, 1945 or 1955?"

Tox
Mark Oppat
2005-11-30 21:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Well, I know for sure the later 33rpm LP records were introduced by Columbia
in 1949. The RCA 45 came out at the same time.

As to the earlier 33 records, not sure, but early 30's to coincide with
sound on film. Not sure how the first talkies ran (1927 was first) if they
had sound on records or what.

Mark Oppat
Post by toxcrusadr
Yeah. I should have said I didn't see how the time period of the 116
correlated with 33 rpm. I bet that would throw a lot of people off in
Trivial Pursuit. "When was the first 33 rpm record made? Closer to
1935, 1945 or 1955?"
Tox
toxcrusadr
2005-11-30 20:59:46 UTC
Permalink
None of which really explains why Philco would have put a 33 speed on a
1936 radio-phono. Even if movie soundtracks were on 12" discs then,
who would be playing those at home anyway? Were they anticipating that
the medium would take off and be used for general music reproduction?

Tox
n***@mytrashmail.com
2005-11-30 21:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by toxcrusadr
None of which really explains why Philco would have put a 33 speed on a
1936 radio-phono. Even if movie soundtracks were on 12" discs then,
who would be playing those at home anyway? Were they anticipating that
the medium would take off and be used for general music reproduction?
Tox
(RCA) Victor offered some 33 1/3 rpm records during the early and mid
1930s.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Herb Oxley
From: address IS Valid.
norml
2005-12-01 01:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Here is what I have heard about this:

In the mid '20s Western Electric decided to devise a sound movie system
using synchronized discs.

They began by calling around to theaters in New York and determining that
the films were being run at about 24 frames per second. (For various
reasons projection speeds had been creeping up from the original practice
of 15-16 fps.)

They calculated that a 16" disc, cut with the then-standard 3 mil stylus
and revolving at 35 rpm, would produce sound of adequate quality for the
length of one reel of film.

They rummaged around in the junk box for stock gears to couple the
projector to the turntable and came upon a combination that produced 33 1/3
rpm at the 24 fps film speed. Close enough.

It was a klunky system and W.E. soon abandoned it (as did everyone else) in
favor of a sound-on-film system.

In the meantime, radio was looking for a means of recording programs for
later broadcast. The 16" discs filled the bill--sort of. They came to be
called "transcriptions" (originally because there was a prejudice against
recorded programs) and remained the medium of choice for syndicated and
delayed network shows until the introduction of magnetic tape after WWII.

RCA Victor did indeed introduce a system of 33 1/3 records in the early
'30s. I believe this system incorporated a smaller groove (necessary for
obtaining adequate high frequency response at the slower speed) but the
necessary high fidelity, light weight playback equipment and quiter surface
material necessary for satisfactory results had not been invented yet and
the system was a failure.

Peter Goldmark at Columbia resurrected the idea after the war and the
system, with light weight, crystal cartridges and quiet vinyl surfaces took
off immediately in 1948.

Columbia had offered the patents to the entire recording industry but at
RCA Sarnoff had a snit and caused his company to dust off the 45 rpm
system, which had been sitting on a laboratory shelf since 1939, and charge
into what came to be regarded as the "speed wars" of the '50s.

The home disc cutters of the '30s and '40s incorporated the 33 1/3 rpm
speed as a means of producing longer, uninterrupted recordings, but with
their 3 mil grooves and the noisy, acetate surfaces, did not satisfy most
music lovers.

Norm Lehfeldt
Post by n***@mytrashmail.com
Post by toxcrusadr
None of which really explains why Philco would have put a 33 speed on a
1936 radio-phono. Even if movie soundtracks were on 12" discs then,
who would be playing those at home anyway? Were they anticipating that
the medium would take off and be used for general music reproduction?
Tox
(RCA) Victor offered some 33 1/3 rpm records during the early and mid
1930s.
Stephanie Weil
2005-12-01 01:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by norml
They rummaged around in the junk box for stock gears to couple the
projector to the turntable and came upon a combination that produced 33 1/3
rpm at the 24 fps film speed. Close enough.
Isn't this the Vitaphone system?

I know the Loew's Jersey theatre in Jersey City has one such projector in
its booth, you can see the turntable and the long pick-up arm on the rear
side of the machine (side opposite the lens).

First time I saw that thing, I thought the turntable was a platter for a
holding a film reel. Go figure. :-P

We also have a Vitaphone disk lying around in a drawer in the projection
booth. It's a huge 16" plastic disk, recorded on one side.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
l***@bu.edu
2005-12-01 02:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Have you heard of the Vitaphone project, a group reuniting films and long
lost/separated sound tracks on these disks.

Ron L
Stephanie Weil
2005-12-02 03:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@bu.edu
Have you heard of the Vitaphone project, a group reuniting films and long
lost/separated sound tracks on these disks.
For all I know, we might also have the film lying around in another
drawer. :D
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Bruce Mercer
2005-12-01 20:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by norml
RCA Victor did indeed introduce a system of 33 1/3 records in the early
'30s. I believe this system incorporated a smaller groove (necessary for
obtaining adequate high frequency response at the slower speed) but the
necessary high fidelity, light weight playback equipment and quiter surface
material necessary for satisfactory results had not been invented yet and
the system was a failure.
These RCA disks came out in 1931. They had a slightly smaller groove than
the standard RCA disk, actually the same groove size as the standard
Edison vertical cut discs made until 1929. The RCA records had to be played
with a special needle that was good for (if I remember correctly) 12
plays...they
may have been chrome plated. They had much worse fidelity than the standard
RCA disks, were a dismal failure and production quickly ceased although the
records
could still be obtained by special order for several years. No new masters
were made after
the initial failure. It's interesting to note that the two speed 1931
Capehart would play these records
but that feature was dropped quickly, reverting to the standard 78 rpm
almost to the end of Capehart
manufacture.
Post by norml
Peter Goldmark at Columbia resurrected the idea after the war and the
system, with light weight, crystal cartridges and quiet vinyl surfaces took
off immediately in 1948.
Goldmark carried on the work of Edison's first true microgroove record (450
grooves per inch @ 80 rpm, acoustically reproduced using a specially ground
elliptical diamond stylus) with the 250 groove per inch @ 33 1/3 rpm record
and made it a commercial success because of the lightweight pickups (G.E. VR
magnetic cartridge) and the cheaper Xtals plus the quiet surface of
vinylite. As Norm says they were an immediate hit when released in 1948.
RCA's 45 rpm records came out in 1949. And yes, I remember the "War of the
Speeds". I'm sure it drove the record store owners crazy trying to keep
stock of 78s, 33 1/3s, and 45s.


Bruce
Michael A. Terrell
2005-11-29 20:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamaniac
Just picked up a nice Philco 116-122, but it's missing the turntable, Does
anybody know which one I should be looking for to replace it with ??
Thanks,
Ben
Is anyone interested in a corrected index for the H.W. Sams RC and CM
series manuals? I scanned the indexes of all the volumes, combined them
and checked every entry. I am working on a CDROM of all the manuals,
with a HTML index and this is the first part of the project. Each basic
changer or turntable is in a separate file, and the series includes some
record cutters and wire recorders. If there is enough interest i will
post the index on my website. I have it in several formats, including a
Microsoft Works Database file. (.wdb) It is also available in tab
delimited text format to import into other databases.
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Michael A. Terrell
2005-12-08 06:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Terrell
Is anyone interested in a corrected index for the H.W. Sams RC and CM
series manuals? I scanned the indexes of all the volumes, combined them
and checked every entry. I am working on a CDROM of all the manuals,
with a HTML index and this is the first part of the project. Each basic
changer or turntable is in a separate file, and the series includes some
record cutters and wire recorders. If there is enough interest i will
post the index on my website. I have it in several formats, including a
Microsoft Works Database file. (.wdb) It is also available in tab
delimited text format to import into other databases.
--
?
Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Since there were no replies I am removing this project from my list.
--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Bruce Mercer
2005-12-09 00:30:05 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to see the manuals and the index would sure be useful.

Bruce

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