Discussion:
ceramic phono cartridges need equalization?
(too old to reply)
David
2004-12-11 20:59:17 UTC
Permalink
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
William Sommerwerck
2004-12-11 17:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Ceramic pickups are amplitude-sensitive, not velocity-sensitive. If the
recording is cut at constant-amplitude, no EQ would be needed. But...

RIAA LPs are constant-amplitude below 500Hz and above 2200Hz, being
constant-velocity in-between. When played with a constant-amplitude pickup, the
frequencies above 2200Hz are therefore "shelved" a bit more than 6dB.

This error can be mechanically equalized in the pickup, electrically equalized
in the amplifier, or ignored altogether (as it often was to give playback a more
mellow sound).

There is another problem. Ceramic pickups usually need a high-impedance load (1M
or higher), and your average solid-state amplifier doesn't come close. This will
cause a loss of output, especially in the bass.

One other point, just to be "complete"... Sonotone and Weathers made
high-quality ceramic pickups in which the stylus was loosely coupled to the
element, just "tickling" it. The Sonotone used an equalizer between the pickup
and the mag-phono input, and the Weathers (IIRC) used an amp/equalizer.
Jim Murphy
2004-12-11 18:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Great explanation but does anyone have a work-around? Like a circuit to go
between the cartridge and the aux input on a solid state amp that will
correct these anomolies? Jim
Post by William Sommerwerck
Ceramic pickups are amplitude-sensitive, not velocity-sensitive. If the
recording is cut at constant-amplitude, no EQ would be needed. But...
RIAA LPs are constant-amplitude below 500Hz and above 2200Hz, being
constant-velocity in-between. When played with a constant-amplitude pickup, the
frequencies above 2200Hz are therefore "shelved" a bit more than 6dB.
This error can be mechanically equalized in the pickup, electrically equalized
in the amplifier, or ignored altogether (as it often was to give playback a more
mellow sound).
There is another problem. Ceramic pickups usually need a high-impedance load (1M
or higher), and your average solid-state amplifier doesn't come close. This will
cause a loss of output, especially in the bass.
One other point, just to be "complete"... Sonotone and Weathers made
high-quality ceramic pickups in which the stylus was loosely coupled to the
element, just "tickling" it. The Sonotone used an equalizer between the pickup
and the mag-phono input, and the Weathers (IIRC) used an amp/equalizer.
Syl's Old Radioz
2004-12-11 18:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Murphy
Great explanation but does anyone have a work-around? Like a circuit to go
between the cartridge and the aux input on a solid state amp that will
correct these anomolies? Jim
I posted pages on the subject couple of months ago.

If you need it I can try finding them.

Syl
William Sommerwerck
2004-12-11 17:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Murphy
Great explanation but does anyone have a work-around?
Like a circuit to go between the cartridge and the aux input
on a solid state amp that will correct these anomolies?
I guess I should ask why you need to play a turntable with a ceramic pickup
through your current equipment. For about $150 you can get a turntable with a
magnetic pickup, plus an external phono preamp, that will provide better sound
and will be gentler on your LPs.
Jim Murphy
2004-12-11 19:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Actually just curious. Syl has suggested a publication that may be just the
ticket. I just have to have every question answered. I'm not sure why. Any
physchologists on this group?
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Jim Murphy
Great explanation but does anyone have a work-around?
Like a circuit to go between the cartridge and the aux input
on a solid state amp that will correct these anomolies?
I guess I should ask why you need to play a turntable with a ceramic pickup
through your current equipment. For about $150 you can get a turntable with a
magnetic pickup, plus an external phono preamp, that will provide better sound
and will be gentler on your LPs.
Syl's Old Radioz
2004-12-11 19:32:05 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Murphy"
Post by Jim Murphy
Actually just curious. Syl has suggested a publication that may be just
the ticket. I just have to have every question answered. I'm not sure why.
Any physchologists on this group?
You don't need a head shrink, you're just fine. Curiosity is a sign of
intelligence.

Here is the article I was talking about.

Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

Hope this helps,
Syl
Jim Murphy
2004-12-12 00:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Syl. I am going to take min to look through the information you
recommend. My wife might dissagree with you about the shrink however. Jim
Post by Syl's Old Radioz
"Jim Murphy"
Post by Jim Murphy
Actually just curious. Syl has suggested a publication that may be just
the ticket. I just have to have every question answered. I'm not sure
why. Any physchologists on this group?
You don't need a head shrink, you're just fine. Curiosity is a sign of
intelligence.
Here is the article I was talking about.
http://www.oldradioz.com/articles/phono_eq_page1.gif
http://www.oldradioz.com/articles/phono_eq_page2.gif
http://www.oldradioz.com/articles/phono_eq_page3.gif
http://www.oldradioz.com/articles/phono_eq_page4.gif
http://www.oldradioz.com/articles/phono_eq_page5.gif
Hope this helps,
Syl
George Conklin
2004-12-12 00:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Murphy
Great explanation but does anyone have a work-around? Like a circuit to go
between the cartridge and the aux input on a solid state amp that will
correct these anomolies? Jim
For what it is worth, ceramic and crystal cartridges were widely
advertised in the 1950s as not needing any equalization at all. Further,
you plugged them into the HIGH level or TUNER input of your amplifier, not
the magnatic or RIAA input. Heathkit and others had adjustments for
different equalization curves on their magnetic input jacks. Frankly, they
made rather little difference on most recordings available at the time.
Tone controls were far more potent.
Richard Steinfeld
2004-12-11 19:20:40 UTC
Permalink
"William Sommerwerck" <***@nwlink.com> wrote in message news:***@corp.supernews.com...

| One other point, just to be "complete"... Sonotone and Weathers
made
| high-quality ceramic pickups in which the stylus was loosely
coupled to the
| element, just "tickling" it. The Sonotone used an equalizer
between the pickup
| and the mag-phono input, and the Weathers (IIRC) used an
amp/equalizer.
|

You remember correctly. There's some confusion as to the real
principle that Weathers stereo pickups worked on. They were sold
as "variable condenser," "strain-gauge," and "ceramic." I believe
that they were all the same, and I've cross-connected them to
prove it. The electronics circuit was called "polarizer" and
"preamp." There was no way to really know because, at least in
the case of my Polarizer, each channel contained one potted
circuit. The futzed diagram for that potted piece appeared to be
a bridge, as I recall.

There was also a low-cost universal-mount version of the
"ceramic." This plugged into your ordinary magnetic phono input
via a simple network in the shape of a tube about 1/4" diameter.
I recall that it contained a resistor and a capacitor. The
cartridges may have differed from one another subtly. The only
differences that I know for sure are that the "better" cartridges
had .5 mil conical styli; the "cheaper" ones came with .7 mil
styli. Unfortunately, none of the Weathers pickups were ever
fitted with high-tech stylus shapes, so we never could evaluate
them head-to-head with later audiophile magnetics.

Weathers definitely had his admirers, and attained a supreme
reputation for musicality. I think that they produced an
"etheric" sound, which probably was due to imprecise rigidity of
the tonearm. A synonym for "etheric" in this case is "pleasantly
muddy." Maybe Bruce can shed more light on this.

In addition, Joe Grado put out low-cost ceramic cartridges as the
"B" series. These were top-rated in Consumer Reports. They
sounded good and gave a lot of bang for the buck. Perhaps this
was the problem. I suspected that he'd boxed himself in with low
pricing, which may be why he gave up on these and returned to
magnetics.

Finally, Micro-Acoustics made cartridges that were probably
ceramics. These were the last high-performance ones ever. I think
that they may have suffered from internal contact failures.

So, that's it. I think that in these four brands, we have the
total of all high-performance ceramic stereo cartridges. I'm not
aware that there were any "greats" in mono. Weathers and Stax
both were making FM pickup systems during the mono LP period; the
principle obviously could not be "ported" to stereo, and both
companies switched to some form of variable capacitance for their
stereo cartridges.
Syl's Old Radioz
2004-12-11 18:21:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
There has been a lenghty discussion couple of months ago.

Use Google using crystal cartridge eq or something similar.

In short, you don't really need EQ for a crystal cartridge, the error
being somewhat small and "acceptable". Designing a crystal or
ceramic cartridge EQ is somewhat difficult as there is no "standard".
I found an article dated from the late 40ies with a few good suggestion
of EQs, but none perfect. This would need a frequency plot from _your_
specific cartridge then design an EQ accordingly.

I find it strange that you find the cartridge to sound "tinny", they
usually sound fine in the bass region. Again, it all depends on
the cartridge you are using.

Syl
George Conklin
2004-12-12 00:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Syl's Old Radioz
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
There has been a lenghty discussion couple of months ago.
Use Google using crystal cartridge eq or something similar.
In short, you don't really need EQ for a crystal cartridge, the error
being somewhat small and "acceptable".
Yes, and this is how they were advertised at the time. Numerous mail
order houses are now advertising turnable/phonographs combinations, one even
with a record changer to play 33/47/78 records. I am wondering what kind of
cartridge they use? They seem to have only one stylus, and who knows what
size it might be?
Mark Oppat
2004-12-12 23:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Numerous mail
order houses are now advertising turnable/phonographs combinations, one even
with a record changer to play 33/47/78 records. I am wondering what kind of
cartridge they use? They seem to have only one stylus, and who knows what
size it might be?

True, and they only supply one stylus, which seems to be the modern standard
.7 mil for 33/45... I doubt the dunkoffs who make these even know that 78's
need 3mil tips!!!
The units I see are JUNK.
You can get a very nice Numark TT1 or TT2 turntables with 33/45/78rpm, on
eBay for $250 or so, then buy the new Stanton 500 carts on ebay that come
with the 78 option tip!
Mark Oppat
Gary Tayman
2004-12-13 01:02:40 UTC
Permalink
For what it's worth, I was recently at Banana's Records in St. Petersburg,
Florida. In conversation with one of the salesmen, he mentioned to me that
they stock portable record players BRAND NEW! I don't recall the brand name
or the price, but these are similar to those players they used to have in
school classrooms. They have wood cases covered with vinyl, dark gray in
color, with removable lids. They have three speeds, 33, 45, and 78. They
have those all-too-familiar ivory colored crystal cartridges with flipover
needles. Again, brand new. Their claim to fame is the fact they do a
remarkable job of playing 78's.

He took one of these, unpacked it, set it on the counter and pulled a 78 off
the shelf. Yes indeed, it sounded impressive. Of course if I was to play
78's as a DJ, I would put it on one of my Stanton STR8-80's, get a needle
for the Stanton 500 cartridge, and play it through the system -- in fact I'd
love to do just that, just to hear how it sounds. But if you just want to
sit in your living room and listen to your old records, this indeed makes
for a nice player.
--
Gary E. Tayman/Tayman Electrical
Sound Solutions For Classic Cars
http://www.taymanelectrical.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
Numerous mail
order houses are now advertising turnable/phonographs combinations, one even
with a record changer to play 33/47/78 records. I am wondering what kind of
cartridge they use? They seem to have only one stylus, and who knows what
size it might be?
True, and they only supply one stylus, which seems to be the modern standard
.7 mil for 33/45... I doubt the dunkoffs who make these even know that 78's
need 3mil tips!!!
The units I see are JUNK.
You can get a very nice Numark TT1 or TT2 turntables with 33/45/78rpm, on
eBay for $250 or so, then buy the new Stanton 500 carts on ebay that come
with the 78 option tip!
Mark Oppat
Mark Oppat
2004-12-13 19:43:54 UTC
Permalink
CALIFONE. You can find them on eBay, in several versions. Most all are
MONO, with speaker in the unit... just like the old days. And, yes, made
even today for institutional uses, mainly DANCE schools and such. Many have
variable pitch for that reason.
They are rim drive IIRC, and pretty well made but not good enough for real
good dubbing to data or CD.

Mark Oppat
Post by Gary Tayman
For what it's worth, I was recently at Banana's Records in St. Petersburg,
Florida. In conversation with one of the salesmen, he mentioned to me that
they stock portable record players BRAND NEW! I don't recall the brand name
or the price, but these are similar to those players they used to have in
school classrooms. They have wood cases covered with vinyl, dark gray in
color, with removable lids. They have three speeds, 33, 45, and 78. They
have those all-too-familiar ivory colored crystal cartridges with flipover
needles. Again, brand new. Their claim to fame is the fact they do a
remarkable job of playing 78's.
He took one of these, unpacked it, set it on the counter and pulled a 78 off
the shelf. Yes indeed, it sounded impressive. Of course if I was to play
78's as a DJ, I would put it on one of my Stanton STR8-80's, get a needle
for the Stanton 500 cartridge, and play it through the system -- in fact I'd
love to do just that, just to hear how it sounds. But if you just want to
sit in your living room and listen to your old records, this indeed makes
for a nice player.
--
Gary E. Tayman/Tayman Electrical
Sound Solutions For Classic Cars
http://www.taymanelectrical.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
Numerous mail
order houses are now advertising turnable/phonographs combinations, one even
with a record changer to play 33/47/78 records. I am wondering what
kind
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
of
cartridge they use? They seem to have only one stylus, and who knows what
size it might be?
True, and they only supply one stylus, which seems to be the modern standard
.7 mil for 33/45... I doubt the dunkoffs who make these even know that 78's
need 3mil tips!!!
The units I see are JUNK.
You can get a very nice Numark TT1 or TT2 turntables with 33/45/78rpm, on
eBay for $250 or so, then buy the new Stanton 500 carts on ebay that come
with the 78 option tip!
Mark Oppat
Stephanie Weil
2004-12-13 19:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
CALIFONE. You can find them on eBay, in several versions. Most all are
MONO, with speaker in the unit... just like the old days. And, yes, made
And they're useless for playing today's stereo records. I foolishly
bought one of these about nine years ago. When it arrived, I unpacked it,
set it up and slapped a current-release LP (probably either rap or
hip-hop).

It skipped worse than a 10 year old on a pogo-stick. When I tried the
record on my stereo BSR record-chewer (also with a ceramic cartridge), it
played fine. No skips.

Sure enough, the damned cartridge used on the Califones doesn't have ANY
vertical compliance. Useless for stereo recordings.

Spend a little money and get a mid-line Sony or Teac belt-drive turntable.
Should be good enough for casual listening as long as you don't stomp
across the floor. They're even available on E-bay.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
George Conklin
2004-12-14 00:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephanie Weil
Post by Mark Oppat
CALIFONE. You can find them on eBay, in several versions. Most all are
MONO, with speaker in the unit... just like the old days. And, yes, made
And they're useless for playing today's stereo records. I foolishly
bought one of these about nine years ago. When it arrived, I unpacked it,
set it up and slapped a current-release LP (probably either rap or
hip-hop).
It skipped worse than a 10 year old on a pogo-stick. When I tried the
record on my stereo BSR record-chewer (also with a ceramic cartridge), it
played fine. No skips.
Sure enough, the damned cartridge used on the Califones doesn't have ANY
vertical compliance. Useless for stereo recordings.
Spend a little money and get a mid-line Sony or Teac belt-drive turntable.
Should be good enough for casual listening as long as you don't stomp
across the floor. They're even available on E-bay.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
That is why I have refused to buy one. But one thing: one of them is a
record changer!! I know no record changer for sale NEW except the ones
advertised with a mono(?) cartridge? There were stereo crysal cartridges.
Do they exist? Don't know. As you know, I keep track of cylinder players,
but not this stuff!!
Mark Oppat
2004-12-14 03:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Stephanie,
NOT true, you must have got a really bad one.
they use real stereo carts usually, wired for mono.

mark oppat
Post by Stephanie Weil
Post by Mark Oppat
CALIFONE. You can find them on eBay, in several versions. Most all are
MONO, with speaker in the unit... just like the old days. And, yes, made
And they're useless for playing today's stereo records. I foolishly
bought one of these about nine years ago. When it arrived, I unpacked it,
set it up and slapped a current-release LP (probably either rap or
hip-hop).
It skipped worse than a 10 year old on a pogo-stick. When I tried the
record on my stereo BSR record-chewer (also with a ceramic cartridge), it
played fine. No skips.
Sure enough, the damned cartridge used on the Califones doesn't have ANY
vertical compliance. Useless for stereo recordings.
Spend a little money and get a mid-line Sony or Teac belt-drive turntable.
Should be good enough for casual listening as long as you don't stomp
across the floor. They're even available on E-bay.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Stephanie Weil
2004-12-14 03:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
Stephanie,
NOT true, you must have got a really bad one.
they use real stereo carts usually, wired for mono.
Califone actually sent me TWO replacement needles before I sent the
machine back to them. Both were for mono use only (read: no vertical
compliance).

I still have the needles here. Want one? Trade you for a volume pot.
Kidding. :)
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Mark Oppat
2004-12-14 21:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Steph....What cartridge was in it?
Mark Oppat
Post by Stephanie Weil
Post by Mark Oppat
Stephanie,
NOT true, you must have got a really bad one.
they use real stereo carts usually, wired for mono.
Califone actually sent me TWO replacement needles before I sent the
machine back to them. Both were for mono use only (read: no vertical
compliance).
I still have the needles here. Want one? Trade you for a volume pot.
Kidding. :)
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Stephanie Weil
2004-12-14 21:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Oppat
Steph....What cartridge was in it?
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=1808&c=ACCT106601&h=a51037c768cd6e7324e6

Looks like this one, except the needle holder is a brown plastic instead
of black.

http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.419/it.A/id.944/.f;jsessionid=ac112b6c1f432501de10be3f451e8138f4b95469666a.qQvJq2PEmlnva30M-BbQmkLz-ATzr6Lzn6rzqwTxpQOUc30KaNDNo6XKq6zInRmLa30O8RbCpR0HoA5Qmh0KawTNo6XK-kDvrA4Ka38IqRnvp6iIpAjOp6jynQjM-AbJpgaLb34Tc3aRbhuL8Oexo6XHngbynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0__

Actually I only have one still in a bag. The other one I stuck into
another Califone phono my brother found for me in the garbage. It had
gotten thrown out because of a broken wire in the coil for the motor (near
the terminals so easily solderable) and all the electrolytics were leaky
and one spilled its guts. Finally got around to fixing it up last winter.

They're not bad 78 rpm disk players...but I wouldn't wanna play my nice
stuff on them.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Mark Robinson
2004-12-14 22:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steph,

That's what I thought was in there. I believe this stylus has the needed
vertical compliance to properly track stereo records. It only responds to
the lateral component, so its mono by nature, but stereo compatible. Its
certainly not a HiFi design, but it should be fine with non-critical
recordings.

Mark
Post by Stephanie Weil
Post by Mark Oppat
Steph....What cartridge was in it?
http://www.needledoctor.com/core/media/media.nl?id=1808&c=ACCT106601&h=a51037c768cd6e7324e6
Post by Stephanie Weil
Looks like this one, except the needle holder is a brown plastic instead
of black.
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.419/it.A/id.944/.f;jsessionid=ac112b6c1f432501de10be3f451e8138f4b95469666a.qQvJq2PEmlnva30M-BbQmkLz-ATzr6Lzn6rzqwTxpQOUc30KaNDNo6XKq6zInRmLa30O8RbCpR0HoA5Qmh0KawTNo6XK-kDvrA4Ka38IqRnvp6iIpAjOp6jynQjM-AbJpgaLb34Tc3aRbhuL8Oexo6XHngbynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0__
Post by Stephanie Weil
Actually I only have one still in a bag. The other one I stuck into
another Califone phono my brother found for me in the garbage. It had
gotten thrown out because of a broken wire in the coil for the motor (near
the terminals so easily solderable) and all the electrolytics were leaky
and one spilled its guts. Finally got around to fixing it up last winter.
They're not bad 78 rpm disk players...but I wouldn't wanna play my nice
stuff on them.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Stephanie Weil
2004-12-14 22:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Robinson
That's what I thought was in there. I believe this stylus has the needed
vertical compliance to properly track stereo records. It only responds to
Hi Mark,

That's what I thought too. But that hasn't been the case in my experience.
Maybe there are other brands of this needle that have the vertical
compliance needed? I don't know anymore. :/

If it had enough vertical compliance for stereo
disks...why was it skipping on the stereo disks I played? And yes, it was
a brand new needle on a scratch-free record, and yes, I had the volume at
a normal level.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Mark Robinson
2004-12-15 13:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steph,

I've had the same problems with an old Audiotronics player equipped with an
Astatic 89T (I think this is the same model or similar to what you provided
a link to). I found this to be the case with newer recordings where the
bass was cut to higher levels than found on older records. I think the
problem is the generally poor tracking performance of this style cartridge.
The Califone and Audiotronics players were standard AV department issue in
schools from back into the 60's. They needed to handle anything that came
down the pike, including stereo records. The crystal cartridge used on the
early RCA 45 players is an example of a device that was truly not stereo
compatible (it had virtually no vertical compliance). Later models switched
to a Sonotone ceramic unit that was similar to the 89T in that it was mono
but with the vertical compliance needed to track stereo records.

Mark
Post by Mark Robinson
Post by Mark Robinson
That's what I thought was in there. I believe this stylus has the needed
vertical compliance to properly track stereo records. It only responds to
Hi Mark,
That's what I thought too. But that hasn't been the case in my experience.
Maybe there are other brands of this needle that have the vertical
compliance needed? I don't know anymore. :/
If it had enough vertical compliance for stereo
disks...why was it skipping on the stereo disks I played? And yes, it was
a brand new needle on a scratch-free record, and yes, I had the volume at
a normal level.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
Tim Mullen
2004-12-15 00:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephanie Weil
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.419/it.A/id.944/.f;jsessionid=ac112b6c1f432501de10be3f451e8138f4b95469666a.qQvJq2PEmlnva30M-BbQmkLz-ATzr6Lzn6rzqwTxpQOUc30KaNDNo6XKq6zInRmLa30O8RbCpR0HoA5Qmh0KawTNo6XK-kDvrA4Ka38IqRnvp6iIpAjOp6jynQjM-AbJpgaLb34Tc3aRbhuL8Oexo6XHngbynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0__
That session ID slays me. Let's say the trailing __ is an end tag,
and they're using a 64 member symbol set as we see. That still means
over 4.58x10^149 combinations, which is like, what? More particles
than exist in the universe? What's with these java servlet guys?
--
Tim Mullen
------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I in your basement? Looking for antique televisions, fans, etc.
------ finger this account or call anytime: (212)-463-0552 -------
r***@fast.net
2004-12-14 23:55:52 UTC
Permalink
test only
Mark Robinson
2004-12-13 20:51:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,

Or, you can buy one new from KAB

http://www.kabusa.com/CALIFO10.HTM

I believe these newer models have cartridges that have vertical compliance
and will play stereo records without a problem.

Mark
Post by Mark Oppat
CALIFONE. You can find them on eBay, in several versions. Most all are
MONO, with speaker in the unit... just like the old days. And, yes, made
even today for institutional uses, mainly DANCE schools and such. Many have
variable pitch for that reason.
They are rim drive IIRC, and pretty well made but not good enough for real
good dubbing to data or CD.
Mark Oppat
Post by Gary Tayman
For what it's worth, I was recently at Banana's Records in St. Petersburg,
Florida. In conversation with one of the salesmen, he mentioned to me
that
Post by Gary Tayman
they stock portable record players BRAND NEW! I don't recall the brand
name
Post by Gary Tayman
or the price, but these are similar to those players they used to have in
school classrooms. They have wood cases covered with vinyl, dark gray in
color, with removable lids. They have three speeds, 33, 45, and 78.
They
Post by Mark Oppat
Post by Gary Tayman
have those all-too-familiar ivory colored crystal cartridges with flipover
needles. Again, brand new. Their claim to fame is the fact they do a
remarkable job of playing 78's.
He took one of these, unpacked it, set it on the counter and pulled a 78
off
Post by Gary Tayman
the shelf. Yes indeed, it sounded impressive. Of course if I was to play
78's as a DJ, I would put it on one of my Stanton STR8-80's, get a needle
for the Stanton 500 cartridge, and play it through the system -- in fact
I'd
Post by Gary Tayman
love to do just that, just to hear how it sounds. But if you just want to
sit in your living room and listen to your old records, this indeed makes
for a nice player.
--
Gary E. Tayman/Tayman Electrical
Sound Solutions For Classic Cars
http://www.taymanelectrical.com
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
Numerous mail
order houses are now advertising turnable/phonographs combinations,
one
Post by Mark Oppat
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
even
with a record changer to play 33/47/78 records. I am wondering what
kind
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
of
cartridge they use? They seem to have only one stylus, and who knows
what
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
size it might be?
True, and they only supply one stylus, which seems to be the modern standard
.7 mil for 33/45... I doubt the dunkoffs who make these even know that 78's
need 3mil tips!!!
The units I see are JUNK.
You can get a very nice Numark TT1 or TT2 turntables with 33/45/78rpm,
on
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
eBay for $250 or so, then buy the new Stanton 500 carts on ebay that
come
Post by Gary Tayman
Post by George Conklin
with the 78 option tip!
Mark Oppat
George Conklin
2004-12-14 00:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Robinson
Hi Mark,
Or, you can buy one new from KAB
http://www.kabusa.com/CALIFO10.HTM
I believe these newer models have cartridges that have vertical compliance
and will play stereo records without a problem.
They do not advertise that if I read the add correctly. And do any of
them have record changers? I notice that some of the el-cheapos do
advertise NEW changers, something I did not know even existed. Am I wrong?
Jim Menning
2004-12-14 00:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
They do not advertise that if I read the add correctly. And do any of
them have record changers? I notice that some of the el-cheapos do
advertise NEW changers, something I did not know even existed. Am I wrong?
Check out the new Crosley Stack-O-Matic:

http://www.retrowonders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=676

jim menning
John Byrns
2004-12-11 19:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
Hi David,

Equalization of ceramic cartridges only require a small amount of
equalization which is generally handled by mechanical means, magnetic
cartridges on the other hand require massive amounts of equalization. In
any case if your ceramic cartridge doesn't include the required mechanical
equalization, the result would sound lacking in highs, not the tinny
sound you describe. Your problem is more likely that the input resistance
of your amplifier is too low resulting in a loss of bass frequencies,
which comes about because a ceramic cartridge appears electrically as a
small capacitor. Low input resistance is especially a problem with
transistor amplifiers, but was even a problem with vacuum tube amplifiers
which typically had an input resistance of 500k or 1 meg Ohm, which is too
small for good bass response with the typical ceramic cartridge which
requires a load of several meg Ohms. If you look at the better vacuum
tube input circuits recommended for ceramic cartridges you will see a
series input resistor of two or three meg Ohms to solve this problem,
although with a loss of volume. Another way to fix the problem is to
shunt the cartridge and input with a capacitor of the appropriate value to
get the bass response you want, although again with a loss of volume.
This shunt capacitor won't cause a loss of high frequencies as you might
expect because is simply forms a capacitive voltage divider with the
internal cartridge impedance which is already like a small capacitor. If
you can afford some loss of volume you might try shunting the cartridge
output with a small capacitor until you find a value that will give the
bass response you want. I would try multiples of 1,000 pF until I found
the right value, which will depend on both the cartridge and the
resistance of your line input.


Regards,

John Byrns


Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/
truegridtz
2004-12-11 19:33:08 UTC
Permalink
JB: Some months ago I was looking at a mid-60s magazine article that Syl
gave a link to. Anyhow, I did some experimenting with what you are
concerned with.

I eventually determined that placing a 100pf cap in series with the ceramic
output converts it to a very acceptable input for RIAA equalizer.

The mag. lit. said 50pf, but 100 pf gave better bass. MH
Post by John Byrns
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
Hi David,
Equalization of ceramic cartridges only require a small amount of
equalization which is generally handled by mechanical means, magnetic
cartridges on the other hand require massive amounts of equalization. In
any case if your ceramic cartridge doesn't include the required mechanical
equalization, the result would sound lacking in highs, not the tinny
sound you describe. Your problem is more likely that the input resistance
of your amplifier is too low resulting in a loss of bass frequencies,
which comes about because a ceramic cartridge appears electrically as a
small capacitor. Low input resistance is especially a problem with
transistor amplifiers, but was even a problem with vacuum tube amplifiers
which typically had an input resistance of 500k or 1 meg Ohm, which is too
small for good bass response with the typical ceramic cartridge which
requires a load of several meg Ohms. If you look at the better vacuum
tube input circuits recommended for ceramic cartridges you will see a
series input resistor of two or three meg Ohms to solve this problem,
although with a loss of volume. Another way to fix the problem is to
shunt the cartridge and input with a capacitor of the appropriate value to
get the bass response you want, although again with a loss of volume.
This shunt capacitor won't cause a loss of high frequencies as you might
expect because is simply forms a capacitive voltage divider with the
internal cartridge impedance which is already like a small capacitor. If
you can afford some loss of volume you might try shunting the cartridge
output with a small capacitor until you find a value that will give the
bass response you want. I would try multiples of 1,000 pF until I found
the right value, which will depend on both the cartridge and the
resistance of your line input.
Regards,
John Byrns
Surf my web pages at, http://users.rcn.com/jbyrns/
Terry
2004-12-11 18:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume is
about right.
Any thoughts?
Impedance matching problem?
Aux input nominal impedance may be 600 ohms or less?
Cartridge impedance is?????
One recollection of 'crystal' cartridge pickup was that it was fairly high
impedance; several thousand ohms? Whereas higher quality 'dynamic?'
cartridges were lower output and lower impedance?
An impedance mismatch can lead to distortion.
I also seem to recall that I had to put a 'de-emphasis?' circuit suitable to
the type cartridge between it and my amplifier input which at the time was
the high impedance grid circuit (IIRC) of a 6J5 audio triode.
Several experts here I'm sure can explain this better and in more practical
terms.
George Conklin
2004-12-12 00:11:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by David
I had always thought crystal and ceramic cartridge turntables could be
connected directly to a line level input on a radio or stereo, such as
"aux".
I am being told a ceramic cartridge, though higher output than a magnetic,
needs a similar type of equalization to "sound right" as a magnetic
cartridge needs.
After plugging a ceramic cartridge turntable into a auz input on a stereo,
it seems this is correct as the sound is somewhat tinny though the volume
is
Post by David
about right.
Any thoughts?
Impedance matching problem?
Aux input nominal impedance may be 600 ohms or less?
Cartridge impedance is?????
One recollection of 'crystal' cartridge pickup was that it was fairly high
impedance; several thousand ohms? Whereas higher quality 'dynamic?'
cartridges were lower output and lower impedance?
An impedance mismatch can lead to distortion.
I also seem to recall that I had to put a 'de-emphasis?' circuit suitable to
the type cartridge between it and my amplifier input which at the time was
the high impedance grid circuit (IIRC) of a 6J5 audio triode.
Several experts here I'm sure can explain this better and in more practical
terms.
Are we going to assume the old cartridge is in good condition?
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