Discussion:
Idler Wheel Wobbles
(too old to reply)
Ham With Extra Class
2004-09-15 11:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi gang. Does anyone know of a source for idler wheels for old
phonos? I just got hold of a Zenith H664 with cobra type tone arm,
but after hearing the CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK in the turntable, I did some
disassembly to find what appears to be the idler wheel not looking
very healthy. Anyone have any experience fixing these yourselves, or
should I consult someone who's more into this? Thanks again for the
suggestions, advice, and help. Gary/N9VU
Syl's Old Radioz
2004-09-15 13:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Try Ed Crockett, he's the best. Contrary to some who only
"re-tire" idlers, Ed put fresh new rubber on idlers. Ed: ***@aol.com

Syl



"Ham With Extra Class" a écrit dans le message
Post by Ham With Extra Class
Hi gang. Does anyone know of a source for idler wheels for old
phonos? I just got hold of a Zenith H664 with cobra type tone arm,
but after hearing the CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK in the turntable, I did some
disassembly to find what appears to be the idler wheel not looking
very healthy. Anyone have any experience fixing these yourselves, or
should I consult someone who's more into this? Thanks again for the
suggestions, advice, and help. Gary/N9VU
Bill Turner
2004-09-15 15:09:37 UTC
Permalink
I "RETIRE" IDLER WHEELS, THAT MEANS I REMOVE 3/16" OF THE OLD RUBBER AND
APPLY A NEW 3/16" OF RUBBER( OR VINYL). THEN I CHUCK IT IN A LATHE AND
WITH A CONTRAROTATING TOOL POST GRINDER REMOVE THE EXCESS UNTIL THE
ORIGINAL DIAMETER IS REACHED. THIS SYSTEM IS EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS
REPLACING THE ENTIRE IDLER AND A LOT CHEAPER. REMEMBER THE MOTOR SHAFT
CONTACTS ONLY THE NEWLY INSTALLED SURFACE.


CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Mark Robinson
2004-09-15 15:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

I have a small 6" bench lathe, but have never tried turning rubber. Do you
have to have a post tool grinder to do this successfully or can you get away
with a fixed cutting tool in the tool post? Can you give me any machining
tips for rubber?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mark
Post by Bill Turner
I "RETIRE" IDLER WHEELS, THAT MEANS I REMOVE 3/16" OF THE OLD RUBBER AND
APPLY A NEW 3/16" OF RUBBER( OR VINYL). THEN I CHUCK IT IN A LATHE AND
WITH A CONTRAROTATING TOOL POST GRINDER REMOVE THE EXCESS UNTIL THE
ORIGINAL DIAMETER IS REACHED. THIS SYSTEM IS EVERY BIT AS GOOD AS
REPLACING THE ENTIRE IDLER AND A LOT CHEAPER. REMEMBER THE MOTOR SHAFT
CONTACTS ONLY THE NEWLY INSTALLED SURFACE.
CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Bill Turner
2004-09-15 16:01:44 UTC
Permalink
IT TAKES A CONTRAROTATING TOOL POST GRINDER. I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE
THE EARLY '50'S.


CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Mark Robinson
2004-09-15 17:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info. Do you know if it would be possible to adapt a Dremel
to use as a poor man's tool post grinder in a small lathe like I own? Would
this work? Any tips on the rotational speeds needed to pull off this kind
of machining?

Mark
Post by Bill Turner
IT TAKES A CONTRAROTATING TOOL POST GRINDER. I'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE
THE EARLY '50'S.
CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Bill Turner
2004-09-15 18:11:49 UTC
Permalink
AS LONG AS THE ROTATION IS CORRECT, THE SPEED OF THE GRINDER ISN'T TOO
IMPORTANT, THE FASTER THE BETTER. ITS ALSO IMPORTANT TO TAKE SURE THE
GRINDING STONE IS PARALLEL TO THE AXIS OF THE IDLER, OTHERWISE YOU END
UP WITH A BEVEL ON THE IDLER.


CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Mark Robinson
2004-09-15 18:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bill,

Thanks Bill, I'll have to give it a try.

Mark
Post by Bill Turner
AS LONG AS THE ROTATION IS CORRECT, THE SPEED OF THE GRINDER ISN'T TOO
IMPORTANT, THE FASTER THE BETTER. ITS ALSO IMPORTANT TO TAKE SURE THE
GRINDING STONE IS PARALLEL TO THE AXIS OF THE IDLER, OTHERWISE YOU END
UP WITH A BEVEL ON THE IDLER.
John Goller, k9uwa
2004-09-16 01:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Robinson
Hi Bill,
I have a small 6" bench lathe, but have never tried turning rubber. Do you
Mark
fixed tool and you will never get it round... will have bumps in the new
surface
John k9uwa
Mark Robinson
2004-09-16 15:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,

Thanks for the comment. I'm still new to running a lathe and any info is
really helpful.

Mark
Post by John Goller, k9uwa
Post by Mark Robinson
Hi Bill,
I have a small 6" bench lathe, but have never tried turning rubber. Do you
Mark
fixed tool and you will never get it round... will have bumps in the new
surface
John k9uwa
Stephanie Weil
2004-09-15 14:03:25 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@posting.google.com>, Ham With
looking > very healthy. Anyone have any experience fixing these
yourselves, or > should I consult someone who's more into this? Thanks

Bill Turner, one of our contributors re-surfaces the idler wheels.
--
Stephanie Weil
New York City, U.S.A.
George
2004-09-15 19:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hello everone
Had Bill Turner resurface two idler wheels for me,
he did an excellent job.
Time Radio
Mark Oppat
2004-09-15 15:17:58 UTC
Permalink
dont bother having this wheel repaired...Your turntable was made by VM
Products ...It probably takes the very common 1496-05 wheel. Those are back
in production. Get one from Gary Stork at
www.thevoiceofmusic.com You will have to send your old one to him as a core
he can rerubber later.

Mark Oppat
Post by Ham With Extra Class
Hi gang. Does anyone know of a source for idler wheels for old
phonos? I just got hold of a Zenith H664 with cobra type tone arm,
but after hearing the CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK in the turntable, I did some
disassembly to find what appears to be the idler wheel not looking
very healthy. Anyone have any experience fixing these yourselves, or
should I consult someone who's more into this? Thanks again for the
suggestions, advice, and help. Gary/N9VU
Mark Robinson
2004-09-15 15:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,

Are you sure about that? If its the Zenith unit I'm thinking of, it has a
interesting drive setup. A small vertically oriented idler and a rubber(?)
coated wheel to allow the turntable speed to be varied in a continuous
manner (there are no speed detents). The problem is usually this larger
base wheel that ends up with some digs. The smaller idler is easy to deal
with. Did VM make this style turntable for any of their units? If you are
correct, then Gary would be the best bet. I'd be interested to know if this
is the case and if he can supply this part.

Mark Robinson
Post by Mark Oppat
dont bother having this wheel repaired...Your turntable was made by VM
Products ...It probably takes the very common 1496-05 wheel. Those are back
in production. Get one from Gary Stork at
www.thevoiceofmusic.com You will have to send your old one to him as a core
he can rerubber later.
Mark Oppat
Mark Oppat
2004-09-15 19:14:18 UTC
Permalink
Might not be a VM.... Check with gary at his site....
Mark Oppat
Post by Mark Robinson
Hi Mark,
Are you sure about that? If its the Zenith unit I'm thinking of, it has a
interesting drive setup. A small vertically oriented idler and a rubber(?)
coated wheel to allow the turntable speed to be varied in a continuous
manner (there are no speed detents). The problem is usually this larger
base wheel that ends up with some digs. The smaller idler is easy to deal
with. Did VM make this style turntable for any of their units? If you are
correct, then Gary would be the best bet. I'd be interested to know if this
is the case and if he can supply this part.
Mark Robinson
Post by Mark Oppat
dont bother having this wheel repaired...Your turntable was made by VM
Products ...It probably takes the very common 1496-05 wheel. Those are
back
Post by Mark Oppat
in production. Get one from Gary Stork at
www.thevoiceofmusic.com You will have to send your old one to him as a
core
Post by Mark Oppat
he can rerubber later.
Mark Oppat
Mark Oppat
2004-09-16 03:49:13 UTC
Permalink
I was thinking the newer Cobramatics, like the 60-'s all speed. Zenith used
VM beginning around 1958 I think...... not sure.
Mark Oppat
Post by Mark Robinson
Hi Mark,
Are you sure about that? If its the Zenith unit I'm thinking of, it has a
interesting drive setup. A small vertically oriented idler and a rubber(?)
coated wheel to allow the turntable speed to be varied in a continuous
manner (there are no speed detents). The problem is usually this larger
base wheel that ends up with some digs. The smaller idler is easy to deal
with. Did VM make this style turntable for any of their units? If you are
correct, then Gary would be the best bet. I'd be interested to know if this
is the case and if he can supply this part.
Mark Robinson
Post by Mark Oppat
dont bother having this wheel repaired...Your turntable was made by VM
Products ...It probably takes the very common 1496-05 wheel. Those are
back
Post by Mark Oppat
in production. Get one from Gary Stork at
www.thevoiceofmusic.com You will have to send your old one to him as a
core
Post by Mark Oppat
he can rerubber later.
Mark Oppat
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-16 03:30:06 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:f5Z1d.4300$***@trndny01...
| Hi Mark,
|
| Are you sure about that? If its the Zenith unit I'm thinking
of, it has a
| interesting drive setup. A small vertically oriented idler and
a rubber(?)
| coated wheel to allow the turntable speed to be varied in a
continuous
| manner (there are no speed detents). The problem is usually
this larger
| base wheel that ends up with some digs. The smaller idler is
easy to deal
| with. Did VM make this style turntable for any of their units?
If you are
| correct, then Gary would be the best bet. I'd be interested to
know if this
| is the case and if he can supply this part.
|

Let's see if I can flesh out this description a bit (note: I am
guessing):
The idler wheel is vertical; the motor is horizontal. The idler
is moved in and out across the platter by the operator's lever,
driving the platter's underside.
This is the design used by Lenco (Switzerland) and Metzner (USA).
Lenco's was assisted by a tapered motor shaft; the idler had a
tapered edge. Is this it?

Ken's link, http://www.radiophile.com/h664.htm, unfortunately,
has only two very tightly-cropped photos -- the rear cluster has
a Webcor look to me, but I can't really see much. I'd like to see
a bunch of photos of this one. Was the quality above-average?
Does anyone know who made the changer? Also, what kind of
cartridge does it have inside that cobra head?

Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-16 15:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

I posted a picture of my H664 so you can see how the drive to the platter is
done. The larger diameter wheel also has a rubber tire on it and is driven
by the motor shaft. I'm not sure that obvious from the photo.

The Cobra cartridge is a bit unusual. It uses a metal disk that is coupled
to the stylus. The disk moves in proximity to a coil in the cartridge. This
coil is part of an oscillator circuit in the amp. The movement of the disk
causes variable eddy current losses in the oscillator and results in both AM
and FM modulation of the oscillator. I believe that the AM component is
detected and used to drive the audio amp. IIRC, the oscillation frequency
is in the 4mhz range. This pickup system was also used by Wurlitzer in
their juke boxes of this era. Its an interesting concept, but I don't think
it resulted in any better performance than the more traditional pickups of
the day.

Mark
Post by Richard Steinfeld
| Hi Mark,
|
| Are you sure about that? If its the Zenith unit I'm thinking
of, it has a
| interesting drive setup. A small vertically oriented idler and
a rubber(?)
| coated wheel to allow the turntable speed to be varied in a
continuous
| manner (there are no speed detents). The problem is usually
this larger
| base wheel that ends up with some digs. The smaller idler is
easy to deal
| with. Did VM make this style turntable for any of their units?
If you are
| correct, then Gary would be the best bet. I'd be interested to
know if this
| is the case and if he can supply this part.
|
Let's see if I can flesh out this description a bit (note: I am
The idler wheel is vertical; the motor is horizontal. The idler
is moved in and out across the platter by the operator's lever,
driving the platter's underside.
This is the design used by Lenco (Switzerland) and Metzner (USA).
Lenco's was assisted by a tapered motor shaft; the idler had a
tapered edge. Is this it?
Ken's link, http://www.radiophile.com/h664.htm, unfortunately,
has only two very tightly-cropped photos -- the rear cluster has
a Webcor look to me, but I can't really see much. I'd like to see
a bunch of photos of this one. Was the quality above-average?
Does anyone know who made the changer? Also, what kind of
cartridge does it have inside that cobra head?
Richard
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-16 19:28:41 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Cei2d.920$***@trndny02...
| Hi Richard,
|
| I posted a picture of my H664 so you can see how the drive to
the platter is
| done. The larger diameter wheel also has a rubber tire on it
and is driven
| by the motor shaft. I'm not sure that obvious from the photo.
|

Where'd you post the photo?

Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-16 19:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

Sorry about that! Its on the alt.binaries.pictures.radio Usenet group.

Mark
Post by Richard Steinfeld
| Hi Richard,
|
| I posted a picture of my H664 so you can see how the drive to
the platter is
| done. The larger diameter wheel also has a rubber tire on it
and is driven
| by the motor shaft. I'm not sure that obvious from the photo.
|
Where'd you post the photo?
Richard
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-18 04:46:03 UTC
Permalink
About the photograph:
Really interesting. How does the motor drive the disk?

Also, please post one or more photos showing the entire changer
with and without the platter -- all I've been able to see is
little detail snippets. How good are the motor and the machine
overall? And I'm still wondering who made the changer for Zenith.
Please make sure to put the word "Zenith" in the subject line.

I recognize your cartridge as a "coil," which seems to be a
version of an FM system -- other people will know more about this
principle in "consumer brands" than I do. The only audiophile
renditions that I know of were from Weathers and Stax; but I've
heard that Ortofon gave it a try, too. I have a Weathers FM
system here, but it will have to wait until I've got enough time
to try it out. I recall being really impressed when it first came
out and I saw it demonstrated at Sam Goody. FM could not be made
to work for stereo.

Richard


"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:T4m2d.12895$***@trndny03...
| Hi Richard,
|
| Sorry about that! Its on the alt.binaries.pictures.radio
Usenet group.
|
| Mark
| "Richard Steinfeld" <***@sonic.net> wrote in
message
| news:JPl2d.14041$***@typhoon.sonic.net...
| >
| > "Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
| > news:Cei2d.920$***@trndny02...
| > | Hi Richard,
| > |
| > | I posted a picture of my H664 so you can see how the drive
to
| > the platter is
| > | done. The larger diameter wheel also has a rubber tire on
it
| > and is driven
| > | by the motor shaft. I'm not sure that obvious from the
photo.
| > |
| >
| > Where'd you post the photo?
| >
| > Richard
| >
|
|
Mark Robinson
2004-09-20 14:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

I posted the extra images you asked about. I believe Zenith made the
changer, but I could be wrong. I don't think the unit is a Hi-Fi device by
any means. The motor is a standard shaded pole induction type and it drives
the big wheel via a small (~1/4" diameter) shaft. The big wheel has a
rubber tire on the outside. This is what is driven by the motor shaft. If
you are interested, I can scan and email you an exploded view of the changer
taken from a Sam's Photofact ca. 1951. I also have the schematic of the
phono.

Zenith offered three versions of the Cobra pickup. They were color coded
red, green, and red/green. The color code corresponded to the stylus tip
diameter. I always forget which is which, but I think it was red = 1mil,
red/green = 2 mil, and green = 3mil. Because of their use in Wurlitzer
jukes, there is a current version of this pickup being made and imported by
Ed Saunders.

http://www.ewsaunders.com


Although the Cobra pickup had an FM component, it was not used in the Zenith
system. It was much simpler to use the AM portion of the signal. I don't
know if the FM portion is more linear than the AM. As far as Zenith was
concerned, it was an unwanted side effect. It would be interesting to look
up the patent of the Cobra system to see if they claimed FM and AM
demodulation schemes. Was the Weathers system a capacitive type pickup?


Mark
Post by Richard Steinfeld
Really interesting. How does the motor drive the disk?
Also, please post one or more photos showing the entire changer
with and without the platter -- all I've been able to see is
little detail snippets. How good are the motor and the machine
overall? And I'm still wondering who made the changer for Zenith.
Please make sure to put the word "Zenith" in the subject line.
I recognize your cartridge as a "coil," which seems to be a
version of an FM system -- other people will know more about this
principle in "consumer brands" than I do. The only audiophile
renditions that I know of were from Weathers and Stax; but I've
heard that Ortofon gave it a try, too. I have a Weathers FM
system here, but it will have to wait until I've got enough time
to try it out. I recall being really impressed when it first came
out and I saw it demonstrated at Sam Goody. FM could not be made
to work for stereo.
Richard
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-21 09:58:37 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:8RB3d.3569$***@trndny05...
| Hi Richard,
|
| I posted the extra images you asked about. I believe Zenith
made the
| changer, but I could be wrong.

Thanks. I took a look.

I don't think the unit is a Hi-Fi device by
| any means.

Yup. I assume that the platter is the ordinary stamped steel
type, but held in better alignment than most in order to maintain
firm contact with the idler and not cause "wow." I like the
apperance of the machine -- it looks like it could be in a
museum.

The motor is a standard shaded pole induction type and it drives
| the big wheel via a small (~1/4" diameter) shaft. The big
wheel has a
| rubber tire on the outside. This is what is driven by the motor
shaft. If
| you are interested, I can scan and email you an exploded view
of the changer
| taken from a Sam's Photofact ca. 1951. I also have the
schematic of the
| phono.
|
| Zenith offered three versions of the Cobra pickup. They were
color coded
| red, green, and red/green. The color code corresponded to the
stylus tip
| diameter. I always forget which is which, but I think it was
red = 1mil,
| red/green = 2 mil, and green = 3mil. Because of their use in
Wurlitzer
| jukes, there is a current version of this pickup being made and
imported by
| Ed Saunders.
|

I'm a bit confused because I'm sure that I've seen
almost-identical piezo cartridges for the tonearm, too. I have a
few on hand, and I believe that one or two have a yellow code.
I've got one cartridge that's repacked by Recoton; it has a
freely-moving pivoted cantilever. The package says that it's
licensed by Electro-Voice. It smells awful.

| Although the Cobra pickup had an FM component, it was not used
in the Zenith
| system. It was much simpler to use the AM portion of the
signal. I don't
| know if the FM portion is more linear than the AM. As far as
Zenith was
| concerned, it was an unwanted side effect. It would be
interesting to look
| up the patent of the Cobra system to see if they claimed FM and
AM
| demodulation schemes. Was the Weathers system a capacitive type
pickup?
|

I think that in some sense it was. The stylus cantilever was
mounted on a plate that was positioned opposite a fixed plate
with a narrow gap between them. A carrier was sent to the
cartridge -- the stylus modulated the carrier using FM. The
version that I saw (and have) is a complete
audiophile/professional integral system consisting of the
cartridge, the modulator, a calibrated cable, and a
viscous-damped wood tonearm. It tracked at 1 or 2 grams at a time
when 8 grams was common. Weathers also made two or more heftier
renditions of the concept for "popular" use, including a turnover
cartridge, for conventional phonos. These funkier cartridges, I
believe, came before the wood tonearm systems. I'm almost certain
that sales were almost nonexistent for the "popular" versions.

The system could not be made to work in stereo, so he changed to
a variable condenser principle, changing the name of the box to
"polarizer." Sometimes, he referred to the thing as a "strain
gauge." With a slight tweak, the stereo cartridge became a piezo,
with either direct feed to a standard hi-fi system, or sold as a
complete arm/cartridge/electroinics box package -- in this case,
the little box was now a "preamp." As far as I know, the best
Weathers mono and stereo systems could go out of calibration.
They were intended for professional use, coming with dual high-
and low-level outputs. All were renowned for outstanding
performance.

I did observe the stereo system in use for syndicated radio
production. However, there's no way that any of these products
could have withstood daily on-the-air work. These products were
musical and satisfying, although they'd have delivered greater
precision if the tonearm had been mounted more ridgidly and if
modern stylus shapes had been employed. Unfortunately, by the
time that elliptical styli came along, Weathers had already sold
his manufacturing business; there was no further technical
development.

Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-21 14:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

The platter has a quite a bit more weight than the standard consumer grade
changer I've run across. It does appear to be stamped, but I think the
underside may be machined to provide a smooth and true surface.

I believe that in later years, Zenith abandoned the true Cobra design and
began to use ceramic pickups. But I think they still continued to market
the phono's as Cobra and Cobramatic. I think these units might be the ones
made by VM that Mark Oppat was referring to.

I really like the styling of the H664. It also has an AM radio built in. I
picked mine up a few years ago in Brimfield. I got it electrically restored
and working, but I was not able to complete the project due to the problems
with the idler wheel. Since then, I've acquired the lathe and thanks to the
input from Bill and John, I'm putting the finishing touches on a home brew
tool post grinder. So, now maybe I can finish up the H664 and get it
running. If that fails, I see that Brain McAllister has what I need (at
least for now).

Mark
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-21 20:41:06 UTC
Permalink
The platter has a quite a bit more weight than the standard
consumer grade
| changer I've run across. It does appear to be stamped, but I
think the
| underside may be machined to provide a smooth and true surface.
|

Do you know the year? This is beginning to sound Lencoesque.
Lenco made two distinctly separate series of machines. Some had
cast platters, the best of which were balanced. The majority used
stamped steel platters. These were heavier and more precise vs.
what we're familiar with in American record players. The platters
have spot-welded extension "spiders" below the platter surface --
the spider provides a stabilized, lower hole -- the platter
slipped over a tapered shaft/spindle, which sat in a machined
sleeve/well -- held precisely by the upper and lower holes. The
platter was not machined. The machines sounded "better than they
had any right to."

If you can visualize this, you can see that Lenco's stamped
platters were rigidly held in place. Lenco also made turntables
down almost to kiddie-phono standards. As far as I've been able
to determine, all Lencos, no matter how cheap or expensive, all
used the identical motor. I was wondering how far toward this
"ideal" Zenith had come. Lencos are all manual players, but one
lonely model had automatic stop or arm lift (I'm told its
troublesome).

| I believe that in later years, Zenith abandoned the true Cobra
design and
| began to use ceramic pickups. But I think they still continued
to market
| the phono's as Cobra and Cobramatic. I think these units might
be the ones
| made by VM that Mark Oppat was referring to.
|

There must be a Zenith junkie on this NG who can explain this. I
think it would be cool for someone to make up a chart showing
types of cartridges, years of use, changer designs and
manufacturers.

I never think of Zenith as a company who made mechanicals. There
must have been a certain amount of contracting out in those days.
I'm almost certain that the first round of BIC record changers --
the "good" ones -- were made for them by VM, and to a totally
fresh, non-VM design.

Speaking of Ed Saunders (a guy who I enjoy), I bought a 78 stylus
from him for a GE VR-II cartridge. I was futzing with it
yesterday. Talking about contracting out, I found:
- The stylus was made by Astatic.
- It was packed by Pfanstiehl
- Pfanstiehl packed it in a "brand X" box -- no ID.

When I'm "spotting" record changers, I look for the telltale sign
of a VM: the little feeler button next to the platter that's part
of the intermix mechanism -- but I've forgotten what it does --
something about determining whether the record is a 10" or 12" --
or something like that -- and worthless when it's the second
record in the stack, etc. I didn't see such a button on your
nifty changer.

| I really like the styling of the H664. It also has an AM radio
built in. I
| picked mine up a few years ago in Brimfield.

Brimfeld where?

I got it electrically restored
| and working, but I was not able to complete the project due to
the problems
| with the idler wheel. Since then, I've acquired the lathe and
thanks to the
| input from Bill and John, I'm putting the finishing touches on
a home brew
| tool post grinder. So, now maybe I can finish up the H664 and
get it
| running. If that fails, I see that Brain McAllister has what I
need (at
| least for now).
|

What are you using for a cartridge/stylus?
Come to think of it, how did Zenith provide for the different
groove sizes?

What exactly is a "tool post grinder?" I've seen Bill Turner
mention this (Turner uses it for Turning?). Who'se McAllister and
what do you need "...at least for now?"

Richard
Ken Doyle
2004-09-21 22:42:43 UTC
Permalink
The Yellow Cobra cartridge you have might be one of the 'second series' from
the mid-50s. These have 2 tips next to each other and the cartridge tips
when you choose 78 or LP. I forget the color codes on these, but they are
something other than the green/1mil red/3mil used on the original series.

Ken D.
Post by Mark Robinson
The platter has a quite a bit more weight than the standard
consumer grade
| changer I've run across. It does appear to be stamped, but I
think the
| underside may be machined to provide a smooth and true surface.
|
Do you know the year? This is beginning to sound Lencoesque.
Lenco made two distinctly separate series of machines. Some had
cast platters, the best of which were balanced. The majority used
stamped steel platters. These were heavier and more precise vs.
what we're familiar with in American record players. The platters
have spot-welded extension "spiders" below the platter surface --
the spider provides a stabilized, lower hole -- the platter
slipped over a tapered shaft/spindle, which sat in a machined
sleeve/well -- held precisely by the upper and lower holes. The
platter was not machined. The machines sounded "better than they
had any right to."
If you can visualize this, you can see that Lenco's stamped
platters were rigidly held in place. Lenco also made turntables
down almost to kiddie-phono standards. As far as I've been able
to determine, all Lencos, no matter how cheap or expensive, all
used the identical motor. I was wondering how far toward this
"ideal" Zenith had come. Lencos are all manual players, but one
lonely model had automatic stop or arm lift (I'm told its
troublesome).
| I believe that in later years, Zenith abandoned the true Cobra
design and
| began to use ceramic pickups. But I think they still continued
to market
| the phono's as Cobra and Cobramatic. I think these units might
be the ones
| made by VM that Mark Oppat was referring to.
|
There must be a Zenith junkie on this NG who can explain this. I
think it would be cool for someone to make up a chart showing
types of cartridges, years of use, changer designs and
manufacturers.
I never think of Zenith as a company who made mechanicals. There
must have been a certain amount of contracting out in those days.
I'm almost certain that the first round of BIC record changers --
the "good" ones -- were made for them by VM, and to a totally
fresh, non-VM design.
Speaking of Ed Saunders (a guy who I enjoy), I bought a 78 stylus
from him for a GE VR-II cartridge. I was futzing with it
- The stylus was made by Astatic.
- It was packed by Pfanstiehl
- Pfanstiehl packed it in a "brand X" box -- no ID.
When I'm "spotting" record changers, I look for the telltale sign
of a VM: the little feeler button next to the platter that's part
of the intermix mechanism -- but I've forgotten what it does --
something about determining whether the record is a 10" or 12" --
or something like that -- and worthless when it's the second
record in the stack, etc. I didn't see such a button on your
nifty changer.
| I really like the styling of the H664. It also has an AM radio
built in. I
| picked mine up a few years ago in Brimfield.
Brimfeld where?
I got it electrically restored
| and working, but I was not able to complete the project due to
the problems
| with the idler wheel. Since then, I've acquired the lathe and
thanks to the
| input from Bill and John, I'm putting the finishing touches on
a home brew
| tool post grinder. So, now maybe I can finish up the H664 and
get it
| running. If that fails, I see that Brain McAllister has what I
need (at
| least for now).
|
What are you using for a cartridge/stylus?
Come to think of it, how did Zenith provide for the different
groove sizes?
What exactly is a "tool post grinder?" I've seen Bill Turner
mention this (Turner uses it for Turning?). Who'se McAllister and
what do you need "...at least for now?"
Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-21 22:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

The Sams for the H664 is dated, Sept. 1951, So I would guess the release
date was some time in 1950 (pretty early for the 45 rpm speed).

Brimfield (in MA), is the big outdoor flea market extravaganza held twice a
year.

http://www.brimfield.com/

As to stylus sizes, remember I mentioned the color code system. My pickup
is red/green which is the middle of the road 2 mil version. This was
supposed to allow you to play all records (33, 78, and 45). I understand
this is probably a bad idea (tracks all records badly), but that was the
thinking at the time.

A tool post grinder is a small grinding wheel that attaches to the tool post
of a lathe. It allows you to precision grind on the lathe.

You might be correct about Zenith. Its very possible that the changer was
contracted out for design and fabrication. I looked to see if I could find
any patent numbers on the changer so that I could do a search. This might
give a clue as to who designed the unit. I did find a sticker on the
underside of the 664, but you need a magnifier to read the numbers. I'll
see if I can track down some further info later.

I should look into the Lenco TT's you have mentioned. I'm trying to put
together a vintage 1950's mono Hi-Fi system. I have a nice Klipsch designed
ElectroVoice Aristocrat speaker. I just picked up a ca.1956 Harmon Kardon
Solo II integrated receiver this past weekend at the Kutztown radio show.
I've got the unit re-cap'ed and running (still needs a few finishing
touches). So, a nice 50's turntable or changer would round out the whole
package. For now, I intend to use a Dual 1219 I trash picked a few months
ago.

Mark
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-22 01:15:26 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:se24d.4455$***@trndny03...
| Hi Richard,
|
| The Sams for the H664 is dated, Sept. 1951, So I would guess
the release
| date was some time in 1950 (pretty early for the 45 rpm speed).
|

Seems really early for 16 2/3 RPM to me, too, but there's some
stuff about that speed I don't know. I was cutting talking books
at that speed at Recording for the Blind in the early 60s -- the
speed seemed already over the hill, except for that use.


| Brimfield (in MA), is the big outdoor flea market extravaganza
held twice a
| year.
|
| http://www.brimfield.com/


Oh, I got it. Right near where I worked in radio (Springfield).

|
| As to stylus sizes, remember I mentioned the color code system.
My pickup
| is red/green which is the middle of the road 2 mil version.
This was
| supposed to allow you to play all records (33, 78, and 45). I
understand
| this is probably a bad idea (tracks all records badly), but
that was the
| thinking at the time.
|

The size may, in fact, be perfect for old mono 45s. I have a
strong hunch that those records were cut with oversized grooves
to help with customers who had ratty phonos and worn-out styli.


| A tool post grinder is a small grinding wheel that attaches to
the tool post
| of a lathe. It allows you to precision grind on the lathe.
|
Got it. I can finally visualize this. Sounds essential for truing
idler wheel rubber.

| You might be correct about Zenith. Its very possible that the
changer was
| contracted out for design and fabrication. I looked to see if
I could find
| any patent numbers on the changer so that I could do a search.
This might
| give a clue as to who designed the unit. I did find a sticker
on the
| underside of the 664, but you need a magnifier to read the
numbers. I'll
| see if I can track down some further info later.
|

| I should look into the Lenco TT's you have mentioned. I'm
trying to put
| together a vintage 1950's mono Hi-Fi system. I have a nice
Klipsch designed
| ElectroVoice Aristocrat speaker. I just picked up a ca.1956
Harmon Kardon
| Solo II integrated receiver this past weekend at the Kutztown
radio show.
| I've got the unit re-cap'ed and running (still needs a few
finishing
| touches). So, a nice 50's turntable or changer would round out
the whole
| package. For now, I intend to use a Dual 1219 I trash picked a
few months
| ago.
|

The 1219 is a fine machine (so long's you get a decent one).
There's a candidate for your idler ministrations -- those idlers
weren't even as common as those for the 1019 (the earlier
variable-speed model). The arm's too good for clunky old
cartridges, but you can put in a Stanton/Pickering and get
interchangeable mono LP (1.0 mil) and 78 (2.7 mil) styli;
unfortunately, these needles must be retipped now as Stanton
doesn't sell them any more (they don't seem to come up on eBay
either). Tracking for those 1.0 mil needles begins around 2.25
grams; the 78 tips need more, somthing like 3.5-5g.

Interesting persuit. I have just mounted, for my Lenco L-75, two
cartridges -- a GE RPX and a VR-II, in order to re-experience
what we used to listen to off the record itself. I've got a few
stereo cartridges in headshells for it also. The RPX takes me
back to 1949. I've been discovering the differences between the
three mono "variable reluctance" models, and will get to know
them better after I finally install the machine in my system.
This Lenco model dates from the 70s, but its tonearm is probably
just klutzy enough to handle those early GEs. It's a really awful
tonearm that audiophiles love to replace with excellent modern
ones. The needles for those old GEs have been a real problem --
so many of the aftermarket styli were badly made. I ruined three
of them just attempting to gain some compliance -- I finally gave
up, having only one good new one left. But it's great listening
to the sound of the 50s. Lencos turn up steadily on eBay,
especially in Canada. Sometimes, the prices are insanely high.

Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-22 13:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,
Post by Richard Steinfeld
The size may, in fact, be perfect for old mono 45s. I have a
strong hunch that those records were cut with oversized grooves
to help with customers who had ratty phonos and worn-out styli.
I think they also did this to record really hot, since the average pop song
was well under 3 minutes. The irony is that when I find an old record of
this type, they have ususally been mistracked so badly, that the peak
recorded levels have that terrible distortion that you can't get rid of
unless you really kill the highs. These records sound best at the fade out,
where the recoded velocity drops to a level that the those old catridges
could better track. I've found that labels (Decca comes to mind), that cut
at more consevative levels tend to sound better because they haven't been
mauled by these catridges.
Post by Richard Steinfeld
The 1219 is a fine machine (so long's you get a decent one).
There's a candidate for your idler ministrations -- those idlers
weren't even as common as those for the 1019 (the earlier
variable-speed model). The arm's too good for clunky old
cartridges, but you can put in a Stanton/Pickering and get
interchangeable mono LP (1.0 mil) and 78 (2.7 mil) styli;
unfortunately, these needles must be retipped now as Stanton
doesn't sell them any more (they don't seem to come up on eBay
either). Tracking for those 1.0 mil needles begins around 2.25
grams; the 78 tips need more, somthing like 3.5-5g.'
Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into that.
Post by Richard Steinfeld
Interesting persuit. I have just mounted, for my Lenco L-75, two
cartridges -- a GE RPX and a VR-II, in order to re-experience
what we used to listen to off the record itself. I've got a few
stereo cartridges in headshells for it also. The RPX takes me
back to 1949. I've been discovering the differences between the
three mono "variable reluctance" models, and will get to know
them better after I finally install the machine in my system.
This Lenco model dates from the 70s, but its tonearm is probably
just klutzy enough to handle those early GEs. It's a really awful
tonearm that audiophiles love to replace with excellent modern
ones. The needles for those old GEs have been a real problem --
so many of the aftermarket styli were badly made. I ruined three
of them just attempting to gain some compliance -- I finally gave
up, having only one good new one left. But it's great listening
to the sound of the 50s. Lencos turn up steadily on eBay,
especially in Canada. Sometimes, the prices are insanely high.'
What is a reasonable price to pay for a decent condition Lenco? I assume the
Bogen B50 is the exact same turntable as the Lenco. I assume there is no
way to adjust for tracking force on these turntables. If that is the case,
can you use a modern day DJ cartridge with one of these units? Can the GE
VR be used with a standard mag input? If I want to use a 50's mono pickup
with my Harmon Kardon, what would you suggest?

Mark
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-23 06:20:49 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:kOe4d.5827$***@trndny06...
| Hi Richard,
|
| > The size may, in fact, be perfect for old mono 45s. I have a
| > strong hunch that those records were cut with oversized
grooves
| > to help with customers who had ratty phonos and worn-out
styli.
|
| I think they also did this to record really hot, since the
average pop song
| was well under 3 minutes. The irony is that when I find an old
record of
| this type, they have ususally been mistracked so badly, that
the peak
| recorded levels have that terrible distortion that you can't
get rid of
| unless you really kill the highs. These records sound best at
the fade out,
| where the recoded velocity drops to a level that the those old
catridges
| could better track. I've found that labels (Decca comes to
mind), that cut
| at more consevative levels tend to sound better because they
haven't been
| mauled by these catridges.
|

Expert Stylus, in England, makes a number of semi-custom-sized
diamonds for "difficult" records -- they retip existing styli. If
you've got a 2 mil stylus, it may tell you something on those
records. I think that most record companies treated 45s almost
contemptuously. Check for Eddit Celetti's web pages (try
different spellings) on using an old cartridge and some of the
(almost horrifying) practices used in making popular music
records during the 45 days. My thought is that most people didn't
replace their styli often enough, and that the stylus tends to
sink down in the groove as it wears -- thus, most groove damage
is down low in the groove. A larger tip rides above the that
damage. That's when Expert Stylus becomes a godsend.


| > The 1219 is a fine machine (so long's you get a decent one).
| > There's a candidate for your idler ministrations -- those
idlers
| > weren't even as common as those for the 1019 (the earlier
| > variable-speed model). The arm's too good for clunky old
| > cartridges, but you can put in a Stanton/Pickering and get
| > interchangeable mono LP (1.0 mil) and 78 (2.7 mil) styli;
| > unfortunately, these needles must be retipped now as Stanton
| > doesn't sell them any more (they don't seem to come up on
eBay
| > either). Tracking for those 1.0 mil needles begins around
2.25
| > grams; the 78 tips need more, somthing like 3.5-5g.'
|
| Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into that.
|
|
| > Interesting persuit. I have just mounted, for my Lenco L-75,
two
| > cartridges -- a GE RPX and a VR-II, in order to re-experience
| > what we used to listen to off the record itself. I've got a
few
| > stereo cartridges in headshells for it also. The RPX takes me
| > back to 1949. I've been discovering the differences between
the
| > three mono "variable reluctance" models, and will get to know
| > them better after I finally install the machine in my system.
| > This Lenco model dates from the 70s, but its tonearm is
probably
| > just klutzy enough to handle those early GEs. It's a really
awful
| > tonearm that audiophiles love to replace with excellent
modern
| > ones. The needles for those old GEs have been a real
problem --
| > so many of the aftermarket styli were badly made. I ruined
three
| > of them just attempting to gain some compliance -- I finally
gave
| > up, having only one good new one left. But it's great
listening
| > to the sound of the 50s. Lencos turn up steadily on eBay,
| > especially in Canada. Sometimes, the prices are insanely
high.'

|
| What is a reasonable price to pay for a decent condition Lenco?
I can't say. Prices vary a lot. None of the best ones will be in
decent condition -- the arms use rubber vertical bearings; those
are always trashed. It's almost impossible to tame that tonearm,
which is one reason why some audiophiles just replace them with
expensive arms. I think that L-75s have been going on eBay for
around $85 or so, more with a dust cover (which I believe in
using).

I assume the
| Bogen B50 is the exact same turntable as the Lenco.

Correct. I don't remember the Bogen numbers, but Lenco made at
least two models for Bogen. Note that Lenco information on the
web has been almost nonexistent until right now -- brand new web
sites are emerging.

I assume there is no
| way to adjust for tracking force on these turntables.

No. VTF is adjustable. The Bogen types (I believe that the Lenco
number was L-70) had adjustable spring-loaded force, which makes
them good for 78s. You can always put a different tonearm on the
machine.

If that is the case,
| can you use a modern day DJ cartridge with one of these units?
Can the GE
| VR be used with a standard mag input? If I want to use a 50's
mono pickup
| with my Harmon Kardon, what would you suggest?

I have preferred Stantons for this type of use, ever since I
first worked with them at WCRX in Springfield, Mass. The stylus
range for them is a shadow of what used to exist. I'd recommend a
Stanton 500 with an appropriate tip -- it's a very versatile
stereo cartridge. DJ simply means a cartridge that uses a needle
that can handle mauling. A guy like Ed Saunders may be able to
set you up with the right needle(s) from his enormous stash. A
period mono cartridge typically requires a lot of force, so it's
not kind to records. I put the two GE pickups in Lenco headshells
for the hell of it -- I won't play any records I care about with
these cartridges, although the 78s will probably survive them
fine.

The GE will work fine with any standard mag input, but it's very
difficult to mount it (it's big and most have a protruding
turnaround knob shaft on the top), and needles are very iffy in
quality. Depends on what you want to do with it -- what types of
records you want to play. Your Dual 1219 is a fine machine (if
it's in good condition), probably as good as the best Lencos --
it's got a hell of a better tonearm and will cycle off at the end
of a side (which almost all the Lencos don't do). Headshells can
be grabbed on eBay sometimes, but they're becoming very rare. The
headshell's contact pins can fail. None of the old GE mono
cartridges are compatible with the Dual's tonearm. I don't think
that it's neccessary to use an old period cartridge -- the modern
stereo cartridges are much better and a lot easier on the
records. The 680 EL is a disco pickup that's also excellent with
"real" music, including mono classical music records. A current
cartridge named, I think, "680 hi fi" has the same stylus size,
but tracks lighter. You should understand that Stanton/Pickering
and Ortofon cartridges take interchangeable styli -- Ortofon,
especially, still offers a dizzying assortment of needles and is
worthy of serious consideration.

Richard
Mark Robinson
2004-09-23 20:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

Thanks for all of the info. I also saw you article on the Lenco web site.
Very nicely done.

I let a B50 pass on ebay yesterday. Here is a link.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48649&item=5720934181&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Looked nice, but I did not like the $33 shipping charge and I was still
unsure if a turntable of this vintage was really worth the starting bid when
shipping was taken into account. I'm sure there will be more in the future.
For now, I think I'll take your advice and go with the 1219 with a modern
cartridge, and I'll be up and running. I'll keep my eyes open for a local
deal at the flea markets an ham radio swaps. At least now I have some idea
for what to look for.

Mark
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-24 05:17:57 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Robinson" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:yXF4d.8774$***@trndny03...
| Hi Richard,
|
| Thanks for all of the info. I also saw you article on the
Lenco web site.
| Very nicely done.
|

Thanks. I suspect that some of the faithful are seething over
what I wrote. One was outraged by a later statement in the
forums, undoubtedly fueled by what I said in the article. (I
essentially said that setting up the Lencos as audiophile
machines was a waste of their multi-speed potential.)

| I let a B50 pass on ebay yesterday. Here is a link.
|
|
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=48649&item=5720934181&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
|

Oh, now I get it: B50 is a _Bogen_ model. No wonder I didn't
recognize it. It's also older than the models I've been focusing
on. I'd opt against it, certainly as a stereo table. This has a
stamped steel platter. Note how good they did their thing -- I've
never seen a different stamped platter machine with that deco
rolled edge. The cast platter machines are better, although many
people have been quite happy with the stamped platter machines --
I bought a stamped-platter B-55 by mistake -- a mistake not so
much because of the model as due to the fact that the machine had
been totally mauled, and further, wasn't properly prepared for
shipping. It arrived with a damaged motor as a result. I confess
that in my opinioin, the B-55 performs better than it has any
right to! There is one early Bogen with a cast platter, and I
think that it was offered with either a ferrous or non-magnetic
platter. There are later cast-platter Lencos -- for certain, the
L-75 and L-78, but there's at least one other one. Unfortunately,
nobody's yet catalogued the Lenco models, and my memory just
doesn't serve.

Things get pretty confusing because we had the Bogen US model
numbers, the UK Goldring models (including two cast platter
models made just for GB), and Lenco's own. There even were some
machines that went to Japan, received Japanese arms, and came
over here badged as Sony. They overlap, but there were some
differences.

| Looked nice, but I did not like the $33 shipping charge and I
was still
| unsure if a turntable of this vintage was really worth the
starting bid when
| shipping was taken into account. I'm sure there will be more
in the future.

I think that waiting is a good idea. His shipping price is fair
if he's going to pack it properly. It is really difficult to pack
a turntable well -- UPS cannot be blamed for all the damage I've
seen and experienced. The later stamped-platter models have a
squared-off platter edge that's scribed, so it appears to be a
machined casting (it's not -- only the edge is machined). Some
audiophiles have actually installed very expensive tonearms on
the stamped steel models, and they say that they're happy with
the results. As I said, these sound better than they have any
right to! My preference would be to put an audiophile arm only on
the cast platter models -- and I'm reserving judgement even about
that.

The seller's cartridge in the photos is one of the GE monos. I
can't tell which one because the little red buttons were
interchangeable -- sometimes people broke their old knobs and
replaced them with newer ones -- the knob in the photo is the
last series.

| For now, I think I'll take your advice and go with the 1219
with a modern
| cartridge, and I'll be up and running. I'll keep my eyes open
for a local
| deal at the flea markets an ham radio swaps. At least now I
have some idea
| for what to look for.
|

Some corrections, etc., from my last post:
First, the pages that will really illuminate a lot about both
early LP cartridges and record-making is Eddie (not "Edit")
Ciletti:
http://www.tangible-technology.com/media/media_1.html
For real-world orientation, I cannot recommend these pages highly
enough. I know from my own recording industry experience that
record making deviated from standards a lot, especially with all
popular music and much jazz. Here, some of the "sorcery" is
revealed.

In answer to your question about a good classic mono cartridge,
the GE VR-II comes to mind as "the universal standard" of the
50s. There were, of course, much better cartridges from
Fairchild, Pickering, etc., but I'd say that the GE, which was
cheap and a good bang for the buck, was what most pop records
were made to sound good with. It was the first "serious"
cartridge for many audiophiles (I'll bet that Sommerwerck had
one -- didn't you William?).

While installing these cartridges a few days ago, I examined
them. Relative to the earlier RPX, the VR-II is refined in almost
every respect -- and fixes some bugs in the original design.
Needles are easier to come by now, too, for the VR-II. However,
as I mentioned earlier, installation can be really difficult, if
not impossible, in some modern tonearms. Also, you should not
expect the VR-II to track at its specified 4 grams. You'll
undoubtedly need 6 grams with any needle you can get. That's too
much force for your Dual; you can do it with a newer Lenco, but
you'll have to put a penny on the tonearm. An older Lenco will
work very nicely with it (models such as the last Bogens and/or
L-70).

Richard
Brian McAllister
2004-09-21 22:36:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:41:06 GMT, "Richard Steinfeld"
Post by Richard Steinfeld
Speaking of Ed Saunders (a guy who I enjoy), I bought a 78 stylus
from him for a GE VR-II cartridge. I was futzing with it
- The stylus was made by Astatic.
- It was packed by Pfanstiehl
- Pfanstiehl packed it in a "brand X" box -- no ID.
That is probably not due to "contracting out", but due to Pfanstiehl's
service to dealers. To help dealers integrate their stock when
switching to selling Pfanstiehl stylii, they would take the dealers
old stock of competitors' stylii and re-package them in "brand x"
packaging, using Pfanstiehl part numbers and package size. I know
this from direct experience, having been a Pfanstiehl dealer in the
1970s.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net ***@hope.thespambots.die
Richard Steinfeld
2004-09-22 00:58:12 UTC
Permalink
"Brian McAllister" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...

| That is probably not due to "contracting out", but due to
Pfanstiehl's
| service to dealers. To help dealers integrate their stock when
| switching to selling Pfanstiehl stylii, they would take the
dealers
| old stock of competitors' stylii and re-package them in "brand
x"
| packaging, using Pfanstiehl part numbers and package size. I
know
| this from direct experience, having been a Pfanstiehl dealer in
the
| 1970s.
|

So, you mean that Pfanstiehl took the dealers' needles back to
Waukegan, packed them up, and then returned them to the dealer?
Sounds expensive, but I always got the sense that Pfanstiehl went
the extra mile beyond what other needle companies would do. Is
this correct?

Richard
Brian McAllister
2004-09-22 01:14:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:58:12 GMT, "Richard Steinfeld"
Post by Richard Steinfeld
So, you mean that Pfanstiehl took the dealers' needles back to
Waukegan, packed them up, and then returned them to the dealer?
Sounds expensive, but I always got the sense that Pfanstiehl went
the extra mile beyond what other needle companies would do. Is
this correct?
Richard
Exactly.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net ***@hope.thespambots.die
Brian McAllister
2004-09-22 11:41:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:14:58 -0400, Brian McAllister
Post by Brian McAllister
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:58:12 GMT, "Richard Steinfeld"
Post by Richard Steinfeld
So, you mean that Pfanstiehl took the dealers' needles back to
Waukegan, packed them up, and then returned them to the dealer?
Sounds expensive, but I always got the sense that Pfanstiehl went
the extra mile beyond what other needle companies would do. Is
this correct?
Richard
Exactly.
Brian McAllister
Sarasota, Florida
If I remember correctly, they did make a charge for this, maybe 35
cents each?
Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net ***@hope.thespambots.die
Brian McAllister
2004-09-21 23:06:46 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:41:06 GMT, "Richard Steinfeld"
Post by Richard Steinfeld
Come to think of it, how did Zenith provide for the different
groove sizes?
The early Cobra cartridges were small slide in affairs, that were
available in 1, 2 or 3 mil stylus versions. They could be changed in
seconds. the 2 mil one was a compromise for the lazy people. Later
versions had dual stylii and a rocker type mechanism to select the
tip.
Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net ***@hope.thespambots.die
Ken Doyle
2004-09-15 18:14:27 UTC
Permalink
The Zenith H664 has the 'real' cobra changer, not a VM like the later ones.
See here:
http://www.radiophile.com/h664.htm

Ken D.
Post by Mark Oppat
dont bother having this wheel repaired...Your turntable was made by VM
Products ...It probably takes the very common 1496-05 wheel. Those are back
in production. Get one from Gary Stork at
www.thevoiceofmusic.com You will have to send your old one to him as a core
he can rerubber later.
Mark Oppat
Post by Ham With Extra Class
Hi gang. Does anyone know of a source for idler wheels for old
phonos? I just got hold of a Zenith H664 with cobra type tone arm,
but after hearing the CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK in the turntable, I did some
disassembly to find what appears to be the idler wheel not looking
very healthy. Anyone have any experience fixing these yourselves, or
should I consult someone who's more into this? Thanks again for the
suggestions, advice, and help. Gary/N9VU
Ham With Extra Class
2004-09-16 11:05:34 UTC
Permalink
So anyway back to things. I guess there aren't many people around who
supply, or redo idler wheels like those for the Zenith H664 w/cobra
turntable, or are there?

I had an idea/thought. Why not clean off the remainder of the rubber
on the wheel itself, and get a small, tight fitting O ring with a flat
end on it, superglue it onto the wheel, and try that? Would it not
fit and do the job? My thoughts were to try it. It can't be any
worse than it is now. GB.
Bill Turner
2004-09-16 11:37:01 UTC
Permalink
OH YES IT CAN, IT COULD NOT FIT AT ALL. BETTER TO HAVE IT DONE THAN
MESS IT UP COMPLETELY.


CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Syl's Old Radioz
2004-09-16 11:52:41 UTC
Permalink
"Ham With Extra Class" a écrit dans le message
Post by Ham With Extra Class
So anyway back to things. I guess there aren't many people around who
supply, or redo idler wheels like those for the Zenith H664 w/cobra
turntable, or are there?
Have you contacted ED ? He can do those cams for the 45s players,
I presume he can do them too.
Post by Ham With Extra Class
I had an idea/thought. Why not clean off the remainder of the rubber
on the wheel itself, and get a small, tight fitting O ring with a flat
end on it, superglue it onto the wheel, and try that? Would it not
fit and do the job? My thoughts were to try it. It can't be any
worse than it is now. GB.
Well....This is what many hobbyists do. The problem is, would you build
a house on a rotten foundation? If you glue an O-ring on a dried
idler, sooner or later you will end up with bumps or other
kind of problems. It is a _temporary_ solution which will work
for 2 weeks, 3 months, 2 years...But will eventually need to
be addressed again in the near future. It is good if you do it
yourself because a) you save money, b) you learn in the process,
c) you get that feeling of accomplishement...(all those reasons are
part of being an hobbyists isn't it?)...but if you are to *pay* for that
service,
get it done right the first time for about 5$ more. Which means removing
ALL of the dried rubber and replace with new, fresh one.

I do a lot of repro parts and offer many services, but I don't
bother replacing (molding) rubber on my idlers (I've tried the "resurfacing
trick,
with expected results...) I send them to a guy who knows how to do them
like I'd do them myself if I were to spend the time....which I don't since I
don't...

Just my thoughts.

Syl
Jeffrey D Angus
2004-09-16 12:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ham With Extra Class
So anyway back to things. I guess there aren't many people around who
supply, or redo idler wheels like those for the Zenith H664 w/cobra
turntable, or are there?
I had one of those. If it's the changer mechanism I think it is,
the speed is varied by running a small idler (about 1" in diameter)
across the flat side of a 3" drive platter.
Post by Ham With Extra Class
I had an idea/thought. Why not clean off the remainder of the rubber
on the wheel itself, and get a small, tight fitting O ring with a flat
end on it, superglue it onto the wheel, and try that? Would it not
fit and do the job? My thoughts were to try it. It can't be any
worse than it is now. GB.
It works. Sort of. At least it tells you that the changer mechanism
is working.

On "refacing idlers":

There are two ways to do it.
(1) correctly. Remove ALL the old rubber and put on a new face
that is the same width and thickness of the original.
(2) incorrectly. Remove all the old rubber and glue on a small
cross section square o-ring resulting in perhaps only 20-30% of
the original contact area with the motor capstan and turntable.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
Tara Morice as Fran, from the movie "Strictly Ballroom"
http://www.grendel.com
Bill Turner
2004-09-16 14:51:09 UTC
Permalink
FORTUNATELY, I DON'T TO EITHER OF THESE. ITS AMAZING HOW MANY "EXPERTS"
TURN UP WITH EACH NEW THING.


CHECK MY WEBSITE: www.dialcover.com
Bill Turner, excuse caps, short answers, stroke.
Business SASE, each order a copy of The Pocket Resource Guide.
Ham With Extra Class
2004-09-17 00:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Well guys, thanks for the advice. I hope phonoed can help me. I
think this is the route I will take as all else in this phonograph
seems to be OK. The radio works well, just needs a dial cord
restringing, and the bakelite needs a good polishing. Thanks again
for the help. GB. email n9vu at comcast dot net.
Brian McAllister
2004-09-17 13:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ham With Extra Class
Well guys, thanks for the advice. I hope phonoed can help me. I
think this is the route I will take as all else in this phonograph
seems to be OK. The radio works well, just needs a dial cord
restringing, and the bakelite needs a good polishing. Thanks again
for the help. GB. email n9vu at comcast dot net.
See my posting on ABPR under your original picture.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net ***@hope.thespambots.die
mrhuntnpeck
2004-09-26 02:55:14 UTC
Permalink
I worked in a place where we removed the rubber from old printing
press rollers and cast new rubber (well a synthetic rubber moulded,
cooked to harden) and then ground them to size. we used special
lathes with reciprocating wet grinders and wet belt sanders, one lathe
set up for each operation. you can't really "machine" rubber.
But it is possible to cut it , with the right shaped cutter, but it
will deflect alot, so this isn't practacle. we did this to remove the
old rubber. also it is possible to trim the ends with a flat chisel
,as if you were doing wood turning

about the dremil.
yes you can use it and it will work fine.
I use mine for this by simply strapping it to the carriage with a
heavy rubber band. and it works as good as the tool post grinder. you
don't have to push hard against it you just need it to stay in one
spot.

Also I thought I would also share a method I invented for myself for
doing this sort of thing.

to make a small roller any size:

use a flat sheet of new rubber, about 1/8" or so thick.
make a simple punch ,for the inside and the outside.
(just a piece or tubing sharpened on the edges will do, if one wanted
to get real fancy one could make one punch to do inside and outside
perfectly, at the same time.)
make the outer punch a little bigger than what you need.
punch out a bunch of washers, and stack them applying a thin film of
crazy glue between the layers and clamping them gently in the vice.
roughen the shaft , axle bushing or whatever in the centre, crazy glue
works for this also.
chuck it in the lathe, turn the outside, go gently,the rubber will
come off like nothing. use a fine feed , and as bill says the stone
should go in the opposite direction to the surface. use a small stone
, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch dia.(not critical)

about the crazy glue. the glue itself is a bit brittle but so little
stays between the layers it pretty much vanishes. I am unsure of the
longevity of crazy glue though. something like that glue for putting
tire patches on bicycles might be better, I haven't tried that.

the reason I like the method of using layers is because if you try to
punch out a thick piece of rubber it will never come out concentric ,
because of it's springyness. and if you have a lathe the punches are a
snap to make.

when you get into rubber, it has hardness, which is called the
durometer. this is measured with a shore durometer which is a little
tool with a pin that sticks out a little. you old the tool against the
rubber and depending how much the pin is pushed in, it shows on a
scale like a dial indicator.
soft rubber might have s durometer of 30. a new erasor maybe 40 or 50.
a 5 year old erasor maybe 90
just to give an idea.

The problem I seem to have is thinking of good cheap sources for nice
flat new rubber.


I just got through making a set (and a spare set) of pistons for my
old volvo's disc brake calipers from stainless. It took a while but I
learned a bit, and made garbage bags full of sharp chips ( my wife
loves those things when I track them in) , fun to see it come out
though , these ones will never rust like the orrigionals.

have fun and let me know if you come up with any other ideas or
quesions :)
the above proceedure may sound long but I tried this a couple of times
and was quite proud with my results, and it didn't take me long to do.

Phil
Gridleak
2004-09-26 03:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Phil
I have a similar problem getting rubber sheet. I machined a punch to
produce gaskets for Edison phono reproduces that makes them in one whack
but need a source for .031 rubber.

DON
AC7PD
mrhuntnpeck
2004-09-26 07:12:30 UTC
Permalink
.031" sounds like an odd thickness. just thinking , but this what I
would try to do.

-make a shaft the internal diameter about 6 inches long.
( turn it to size, turning between centres, so you can take the shaft
out and put it back and it will always run true.)
drive it with a lathe dog not the chuck.

-coat the shaft with something, white glue maybe?

- punch out washers to fit the shaft ,a little oversize on the outside
of whatever thickness you can find, 1/8 maybe 3/32nd

-stack them on the shaft, gluing them together.

-grind the whole works to the outside diameter.

- using a thin blade in the toolpost make a slice,
-move over .031"

-slice again, and so on. they will come off easy if they aren't too
well bonded to the shaft.

-throw out any ones where they happen to fall on a glue joint. maybe
half of them ,but that's ok.

if they stretch over the shaft. they might be too small when they come
off. maybe make the shaft to suit some sample washers made from your
punch.

a step near the end of the shaft might help to keep them all square as
you push each washer onto the shaft.

Phil m
Post by Gridleak
Phil
I have a similar problem getting rubber sheet. I machined a punch to
produce gaskets for Edison phono reproduces that makes them in one whack
but need a source for .031 rubber.
DON
AC7PD
Alan Douglas
2004-09-26 12:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Gridleak
I have a similar problem getting rubber sheet. I machined a punch to
produce gaskets for Edison phono reproduces that makes them in one whack
but need a source for .031 rubber.
I have lots of .029 neoprene; you're welcome to a few square feet.

Getting back to phono idlers, I also have a 3x3 ft sheet of 1/4"
neoprene, gasket material from Navy subs (it came from New London
surplus). It's marked TY1 CL II 4/Q/92 and MIL-G-1149C. I think that
means it's choloroprene and was made in 1992.

73, Alan

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