Is it possible to fix a badly warped 45 record?

[t***@myshop.com]

I got a 45 record at a rummage sale for 10 cents. Nothing special, but
since I just acquired an old portable record player, I wanted to try it.
I put the record on the dash in my car and left it there till the next
day. Apparently the sun warped it, and it now looks like waves on the
ocean. Before tossing it in the trash, I want to know if there is a way
to fix this. I've heard this is possible, but dont know how.

I was wondering about heating it with a hair dryer, then sitting a flat
object on it, such as a board, and a weight on top of the board till it
cools.

Have any of you tried anything like this?
Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give it a try if there is any
hope for it.

I forgot how touchy records are to heat..... Now I know.....

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Post by t***@myshop.com
I got a 45 record at a rummage sale for 10 cents. Nothing special, but
since I just acquired an old portable record player, I wanted to try it.
I put the record on the dash in my car and left it there till the next
day. Apparently the sun warped it, and it now looks like waves on the
ocean. Before tossing it in the trash, I want to know if there is a way
to fix this. I've heard this is possible, but dont know how.
I was wondering about heating it with a hair dryer, then sitting a flat
object on it, such as a board, and a weight on top of the board till it
cools.
Have any of you tried anything like this?
Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give it a try if there is any
hope for it.
I forgot how touchy records are to heat..... Now I know.....

With shellac 78s it is possible to put them somewhere warm between two
weighted sheets of glass and they will slowly return to flat. It won't
be so easy with a vinyl45 because vinyl has a much higher melting point
and the thickened label area will prevent the glass sheets from coming
together fully. It needs to be done gently with only just enough force
and heat to make the material creep slowly over several days. Pressed
vinyl has a lot of built-in stresses (as you have discovered) and the
treatment may release these and make the warpage even worse.

One way of dealing with badly-warped records is to play them at half
speed, so the arm doesn't get thrown around - then speed up the
recording. There are two caveats with doing it this way:

1) The RIAA equalisation has to be altered to suit the pitch change or
omitted and then applied afterwards to the correct-speed copy.

2) The warp can cause wow due to stretching of the disc material or
because the pickup arm swings through a vertical arc. The former will
depend on how carefully you re-shape the disc and the latter will be at
a minimum when the arm pivot is in the same plane as the disc and is
less for longer arms (I suppose a vertically-parallel-tracking arm is a
possibility, but designing one would be a nightmare).

Another factor is how much clearance there is beneath the arm and
cartridge. Really bad warps can catch the arm and throw it up in the
air. This can be overcome if you are designing the arm yourself (and
has to receive quite a bit of attention in the design of players for
archival material) but if you are stuck with a commercial design, you
may have to detach the cartridge and temporarily re-mount it lower on
some packing.

All in all, this is a good opportunity for some fun experimentation -
and you never know: once people hear you can do it, you might find
yourself having to do it for real with some irreplacable material.
That's how I started.

[John Robertson]

Post by t***@myshop.com
I got a 45 record at a rummage sale for 10 cents. Nothing special, but
since I just acquired an old portable record player, I wanted to try it.
I put the record on the dash in my car and left it there till the next
day. Apparently the sun warped it, and it now looks like waves on the
ocean. Before tossing it in the trash, I want to know if there is a way
to fix this. I've heard this is possible, but dont know how.
I was wondering about heating it with a hair dryer, then sitting a flat
object on it, such as a board, and a weight on top of the board till it
cools.
Have any of you tried anything like this?
Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give it a try if there is any
hope for it.
I forgot how touchy records are to heat..... Now I know.....

People have flattened records for jukeboxes in an oven with the record
between two sheets of glass. Of course the oven has to have good
temperature control as too warm and you get a puddle..

However if you ever considered using Google or another search engine you
could try "flatten record" and you would find your answer.

John :-#)#

[Fox's Mercantile]

Post by John Robertson
However if you ever considered using Google or another search engine you
could try "flatten record" and you would find your answer.

Google doesn't waste our time.

[Neon John]

Post by John Robertson
However if you ever considered using Google or another search engine you
could try "flatten record" and you would find your answer.

If he had used Google then he would not have started a conversation in
the almost dead group.

Years ago, the Chattanooga (TN) public library decided to get rid of
all its analog recordings. I was the only bidder and got the
collection for the opening bid of $100. Two pickup trucks full.

Many 45s were in rough shape and I had a lot of 'em. I have a friend
who owns a replacement glass company. I had him cut me a couple dozen
12" squares of "thick glass".

Get a can of silicone spray, spray each side of the glass and polish
it off. This keeps the vinyl from sticking to the glass.

I have a large lab oven. I alternated glass and record until the
stack was near the top. I placed a glass piece on the top and added 2
20 lb bars of solder. The oven is equipped with a precision temp
controller capable of 1 deg F control. Controllers to do this are
available on sleazebay for about $15.

A domestic oven will work fine. Just be sure to shield the records
from the direct infrared of the heating element. A piece of heavy
duty aluminum will do the job just find.

Restoring the records to flatness while not distorting the grooves is
a long, drawn-out process. After researching record vinyl
characteristics, I set my controller to 140 deg. The process took at
least a week - I didn't keep track.

This process was developed using several records containing junk music
so I know the process works.

This was an amazing collection, ranging from real albums (a book with
each page containing a 78RPM record) on up to relatively modern music.
Some of the albums still had the cello on them - never listened to.

It took several years to digitize the collection, after which I
donated it to our small local library. They were thrilled.

Here's another tip. If you have a very scratched record that you want
to attempt digitizing, mix up a quart of water with a drop of
dishwashing detergent. The detergent is a surfactant that causes the
water to wet even the finest features. Flood the record with the
water and play it while flooded. Some highs are lost but the
scratches practically disappear. This process turns a practically
unlistenable into something that can be listened to, though not always
at the highest of fidelity.

If you worry about water getting in your cartridge (I didn't), buy a
second one just for wet recording. It doesn't have to be a
particularly high quality cartridge considering the source.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[t***@myshop.com]

Post by Neon John
If he had used Google then he would not have started a conversation in
the almost dead group.

And probably gotten lots of useless information and hundreds of dead
links. Google is garbage and gets worse every year..... But they're
happy to take your money..... And steal your identity.....

I try to use the web as little as possible.

Thanks for all your useful help on this subject.

[John Robertson]

Post by Neon John

Post by John Robertson
However if you ever considered using Google or another search engine you
could try "flatten record" and you would find your answer.

If he had used Google then he would not have started a conversation in
the almost dead group.
Years ago, the Chattanooga (TN) public library decided to get rid of
all its analog recordings. I was the only bidder and got the
collection for the opening bid of $100. Two pickup trucks full.
Many 45s were in rough shape and I had a lot of 'em. I have a friend
who owns a replacement glass company. I had him cut me a couple dozen
12" squares of "thick glass".
Get a can of silicone spray, spray each side of the glass and polish
it off. This keeps the vinyl from sticking to the glass.
I have a large lab oven. I alternated glass and record until the
stack was near the top. I placed a glass piece on the top and added 2
20 lb bars of solder. The oven is equipped with a precision temp
controller capable of 1 deg F control. Controllers to do this are
available on sleazebay for about $15.
A domestic oven will work fine. Just be sure to shield the records
from the direct infrared of the heating element. A piece of heavy
duty aluminum will do the job just find.
Restoring the records to flatness while not distorting the grooves is
a long, drawn-out process. After researching record vinyl
characteristics, I set my controller to 140 deg. The process took at
least a week - I didn't keep track.
This process was developed using several records containing junk music
so I know the process works.
This was an amazing collection, ranging from real albums (a book with
each page containing a 78RPM record) on up to relatively modern music.
Some of the albums still had the cello on them - never listened to.
It took several years to digitize the collection, after which I
donated it to our small local library. They were thrilled.
Here's another tip. If you have a very scratched record that you want
to attempt digitizing, mix up a quart of water with a drop of
dishwashing detergent. The detergent is a surfactant that causes the
water to wet even the finest features. Flood the record with the
water and play it while flooded. Some highs are lost but the
scratches practically disappear. This process turns a practically
unlistenable into something that can be listened to, though not always
at the highest of fidelity.
If you worry about water getting in your cartridge (I didn't), buy a
second one just for wet recording. It doesn't have to be a
particularly high quality cartridge considering the source.
John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

Great description of the process. Did you consider using a pace of paper
or thin cardboard with a hole cut out large enough to deal with the
label? I imagine the record would 'sag' until it was flat on the bottom
side and settled down a bit from the top side of the label.

Still when you are dealing with previously warped - flat records, even
if offset slightly, are a great improvement.

Thanks for taking the time to report.

John :-#)#

[Adrian Tuddenham]

...Did you consider using a pace of paper
or thin cardboard with a hole cut out large enough to deal with the
label? I imagine the record would 'sag' until it was flat on the bottom
side and settled down a bit from the top side of the label.

The cardboard, instead of the glass, would be in contact with the record
surface and would leave an impression or even stick to it. It really
needs a glass sheet with a hole in it, but this would have to be made by
a specialist glass cutter.

When I got my 'circular' glass sheets made, they looked as though they
had been chewed out with a pair of false teeth. I had assumed the glass
cutter would have the appropriate machine, but it appears he didn't.
They worked all right, so there was no point in making a fuss.

They both have central holes, so I not only use them for flattening, but
one of the pair goes on the turntable to raise the disc up to a smaller
diameter region of the centre spindle. This allows it to be more
accurately centred by means of a meter in the feedback circuit of the
parallel tracker servo.

[John Robertson]

Hi Adrian,

Post by Adrian Tuddenham

...Did you consider using a pace of paper
or thin cardboard with a hole cut out large enough to deal with the
label? I imagine the record would 'sag' until it was flat on the bottom
side and settled down a bit from the top side of the label.

The cardboard, instead of the glass, would be in contact with the record
surface and would leave an impression or even stick to it. It really
needs a glass sheet with a hole in it, but this would have to be made by
a specialist glass cutter.

If the record playing part (groove section) did not sag to one side
beneath the extra thickness of the labels then my suggestion about a
thin piece of paper or cardboard (or ??) would not be needed to keep the
body of the record centred relative to the thickness of the centre area
with the label. I agree that if the paper/cardboard was squished against
the record it would flatten the groves. This idea was more to act as a
support for the playing part of the record when it softened and
flattened out. Of course if the records are warped then the warpage goes
higher and lower than the label portion so how do you prevent the groves
from being flattened where they are in contact with the glass?

I'M starting to think one could do this centrifugally - spin the record
in the oven that is just warm enough to make the plastic flexible, but
not enough to stretch... Rube Goldberg lives!

Post by Adrian Tuddenham
When I got my 'circular' glass sheets made, they looked as though they
had been chewed out with a pair of false teeth. I had assumed the glass
cutter would have the appropriate machine, but it appears he didn't.
They worked all right, so there was no point in making a fuss.
They both have central holes, so I not only use them for flattening, but
one of the pair goes on the turntable to raise the disc up to a smaller
diameter region of the centre spindle. This allows it to be more
accurately centred by means of a meter in the feedback circuit of the
parallel tracker servo.

I don't quite have a picture in my mind about your last paragraph. What
do you mean by "They both have central holes"? Obviously the record has
a hole (large or small de[ending on the 45), but what else does?

Also, wouldn't a square piece of glass work just as well as a round one
that is cut to the diameter of the 45? That seems like an excessive
expense and why would it matter if the glass was round or square 7 to
7.25 inches on a side? If all were square you could make a simple frame
to keep them all centred in the oven?

Do you have any photos? I'm sure a few of us would be interested and I
would like to make a write up for my jukebox support pages on flippers.com

Thanks,

John :-#)#

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Post by John Robertson

Post by Adrian Tuddenham
They both have central holes, so I not only use them for flattening, but
one of the pair goes on the turntable to raise the disc up to a smaller
diameter region of the centre spindle. This allows it to be more
accurately centred by means of a meter in the feedback circuit of the
parallel tracker servo.

I don't quite have a picture in my mind about your last paragraph. What
do you mean by "They both have central holes"? Obviously the record has
a hole (large or small de[ending on the 45), but what else does?
Also, wouldn't a square piece of glass work just as well as a round one
that is cut to the diameter of the 45? That seems like an excessive
expense and why would it matter if the glass was round or square 7 to
7.25 inches on a side? If all were square you could make a simple frame
to keep them all centred in the oven?
Do you have any photos? I'm sure a few of us would be interested and I
would like to make a write up for my jukebox support pages on flippers.com

You can see part of the parallel-tracker in the background of the
picture at:

http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/lifebeforevinyl/main.htm

The short arm is suspended beneath a die-cast box, which contains the
optical sensor for pickup angle. Two photocells receive a beam from an
infra-red LED; a metal flag on the arm pivot partially obscures each of
them. When the arm is truely tangential to the grooves, the photocell
currents are in balance, but any off-balance caused by skewing is
amplified and applied to a servo motor that drives the whole assembly
along the track until the correct angle is restored. There are some
analogue electronics involved in damping any tendency to hunt and to
over-ride the time constants and make the motor run at full speed when a
large error needs correcting quickly.

The motor can be switched off by means of a front panel control, so that
the static error voltage can be read off a meter. Another position of
the switch increases the gain so that the markings on the meter
correspond to thousandths of an inch, to aid acurate centring as the
turntable is rotated slowly by hand.

There is also the option to electrically bias the pickup to one side or
the other, this is especially useful when playing a record with sticking
or jumping grooves. I have a second turntable that can play in reverse,
which allows a turn that has been missed because of a groove jump to be
played by creeping up on it from behind - the recording of that section
is then reversed and dropped into the rest of the playback.

In the picture you can just make out the glass plate, which is about an
inch bigger in diameter than the disc. For flattening purposes, a
square of glass would have been sufficient (I used to use the back
windows out of a scrap Mini van), but the corners would be a bit of a
hazard rotating at 78 rpm on a turntable.


[If you want to hear the programmes, go to the individual programme page
and click on the single dot below the Episode title.]

[Jim Mueller]

Post by John Robertson

Did you consider using a pace of paper or thin cardboard with a hole

cut out large enough to deal with the label? I imagine the record would
'sag' until it was flat on the bottom side and settled down a bit from
the top side of the label.

Post by John Robertson
Still when you are dealing with previously warped - flat records, even
if offset slightly, are a great improvement.
Thanks for taking the time to report.
John :-#)#

How about aluminum? That wouldn't leave crud on the record like a paper
product would and is much easier to work than glass.

[Neon John]

Post by Jim Mueller
How about aluminum? That wouldn't leave crud on the record like a paper
product would and is much easier to work than glass.

One of my hobby endeavors is working with glass. Blown, stained,
neon, etc.

I can cut a glass circle in about 15 seconds. I have a compass-like
tool with a suction cup on one end and a sharp carbide cutter on the
other. Stick the cup at the center of the disc. Set the radius and
then rotate the carbide tool to cut a circle groove in the glass.
Using a manual glass cutting tool, run several grooves from the circle
on an angle to the edge of the glass.

Hold the glass and tap the underside with something a bit heavy. Most
glass cutters have a cast iron ball on the other end.

A crack will start. Continue tapping around the circle just behind
the head of the crack. Sometimes the crack will deviate to one of the
angle lines. This is good. Without the stress cracks, the
accumulated stress will likely cause the crack to deviate from the
circle. When the crack reaches the beginning, the circle will pop
out.

Float glass costs a fraction of the price of plywood.

My friend has a Pantograph-machine that is about 4X faster than doing
it manually.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[Jim Mueller]

Post by Jim Mueller
How about aluminum? That wouldn't leave crud on the record like a paper
product would and is much easier to work than glass.

One of my hobby endeavors is working with glass. Blown, stained, neon,
etc.
I can cut a glass circle in about 15 seconds. I have a compass-like
tool with a suction cup on one end and a sharp carbide cutter on the
other. Stick the cup at the center of the disc. Set the radius and
then rotate the carbide tool to cut a circle groove in the glass. Using
a manual glass cutting tool, run several grooves from the circle on an
angle to the edge of the glass.
Hold the glass and tap the underside with something a bit heavy. Most
glass cutters have a cast iron ball on the other end.
A crack will start. Continue tapping around the circle just behind the
head of the crack. Sometimes the crack will deviate to one of the angle
lines. This is good. Without the stress cracks, the accumulated stress
will likely cause the crack to deviate from the circle. When the crack
reaches the beginning, the circle will pop out.
Float glass costs a fraction of the price of plywood.
My friend has a Pantograph-machine that is about 4X faster than doing it
manually.
John
John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico
Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

That sounds like the circle of glass is the desired piece. What if the
circle were the scrap? Like for cutting a hole in the glass to clear the
thicker label of a 45?

[Neon John]

Post by Jim Mueller
That sounds like the circle of glass is the desired piece. What if the
circle were the scrap? Like for cutting a hole in the glass to clear the
thicker label of a 45?

Same process, smaller circle, minus the diagonals, of course. You'll
run the risk of having crack deviation but that doesn't happen too
often.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[Jim Mueller]

Post by t***@myshop.com
I got a 45 record at a rummage sale for 10 cents. Nothing special, but
since I just acquired an old portable record player, I wanted to try it.
I put the record on the dash in my car and left it there till the next
day. Apparently the sun warped it, and it now looks like waves on the
ocean. Before tossing it in the trash, I want to know if there is a way
to fix this. I've heard this is possible, but dont know how.
I was wondering about heating it with a hair dryer, then sitting a flat
object on it, such as a board, and a weight on top of the board till it
cools.
Have any of you tried anything like this?
Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give it a try if there is any
hope for it.
I forgot how touchy records are to heat..... Now I know.....

If you succeed, please post how you did it. The rest of us would like to
know what actually works.

As mentioned previously, the problem with 45s is that the label area is
thicker, so if you want to press it, you will have to take that into
account.

[Terry S]

Post by t***@myshop.com
I got a 45 record at a rummage sale for 10 cents. Nothing special, but
since I just acquired an old portable record player, I wanted to try it.
I put the record on the dash in my car and left it there till the next
day. Apparently the sun warped it, and it now looks like waves on the
ocean. Before tossing it in the trash, I want to know if there is a way
to fix this. I've heard this is possible, but dont know how.
I was wondering about heating it with a hair dryer, then sitting a flat
object on it, such as a board, and a weight on top of the board till it
cools.
Have any of you tried anything like this?
Maybe I'm just wasting my time, but I'll give it a try if there is any
hope for it.
I forgot how touchy records are to heat..... Now I know.....

Just what the hell did you THINK might happen if you left a 45 on your dash?

Never mind, this I'm certain is another BS post anyway. You just like to hear yourself type.